Start from Scratch
If there’s one thing that always stirs up a debate for our family… it’s golf. Some of us provide sensible, measured and articulate points. Others, chat complete s**t from start to finish. You can decide who’s who for yourselves!
Start from Scratch
S2 E3: The Evolution of Golf Fitness with Mike Carroll, Swing Speeds and the Big Cat's Struggles
We're joined by Mike Carroll, founder of Fit For Golf, and a fountain of knowledge and understanding about golf fitness! We share some golf trip tales, ongoing handicap hurdles, and Mike's client Paul's inspiring journey to better fitness, even in his 70s.
Our conversation takes a swing at the changing landscape of golf performance. With more resources at the disposal of today's golfers and an influx of raw athletes, the sport's competitive nature has evolved. Our discussion with Mike sheds light on how physical training can revolutionise golf and why modern equipment, while forgiving, doesn't necessarily improve skill. We also tackle Tiger Woods, musing about the possibility of his return to former glory. What would his life be like without golf? How does his image change with every step on the golf course?
We then navigate the world of fitness wearables and their role in the beautiful game. How accurate are these gadgets in guiding training schedules? Are they promoting healthier lifestyles? Mike shares his experience and views on these smart devices. From swing speed training's impact to the importance of distance, we dive deep into the intricacies of golf. Not forgetting... the quiz!
Yeah, i think he'll win one. I think I went into the major. I think I'll get to 16. I Don't want it to be I think. I agree with Mike. I think it'll be the open. I hope so. Well, you don't make you're the pessimist on there, me, mike and Liam when Tiger hears this podcast. Me Right, episode three. We got Josh, liam and we got a guest, mike Carol. Mike Carol's fit for golf. You might have seen him online, mike, i'll let you introduce yourself quickly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks for inviting me to come on your podcast, guys. I appreciate it. So, yeah, as you said, my name is Mike Carol. I run the business fit for golf, which is a physical training. It's a company that is about physical training for helping golfers getting better shape for golf and life, essentially, i.
Speaker 1:Stumbled the post. I stumbled across your account and it was. It was during COVID And I know that we were me knew it message and I wanted you on the podcast the first time we started before Josh took our Worth three years to back up and it just never, never, never came to anything. So I'm really really chuffed. Have you on with this tonight. So thanks for coming on. You're actually in the sunny background there. You're in California And it's really miserable weather where I am And don't know about the rest here. Yeah, it's a poll in here in Liverpool.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately yeah, uk summer, but you don't miss them, mike.
Speaker 3:No, definitely not, Although the weather in Ireland has been extremely good for the last month or so Lots and lots of sunshine, very little rain, yeah.
Speaker 1:I can attest to that. I was up in Bray, near Dublin, right as we can For the golf trip and it was, it was. It was after the stunning. It was like being abroad, especially because it's you know, it's really probably like you're on holiday.
Speaker 1:Good. Did you hit any decent shots? I honestly no. I generally thought I'd go there with. So my handicap, mike, is, my index is 18 and it's been. I've been playing golf for. So I'm 26 now Liam's 33, tristula 32 We've all been playing golf since we were about 15 and They're all single figures and I'm still off like 18, 19, 20 and I just. It's just a sport I can't get along with. So I went there with high hopes and I didn't hit one good shot. One good shot. I came in with 17 points. One day, 25 that acts, i think, mike, the context of Mike needs to know is your worst nightmare. Basically, mike, you, you are gonna be dealing with his people are really committed to golf, committed to the game, commit to improvement. Josh is the polar opposite. He thinks that he, he knows what he needs to do and he's had close to zero progress so far. I'm actually I sound quite a Good customer for Mike, because I'm all about trying to hit it further, mike and I've seen We can talk after.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we can talk.
Speaker 1:But, yeah. I think we played Blaine row do you know, many courses on that.
Speaker 3:That way I know some of the more popular ones. But it's kind of a decent distance away from where I grew up, so I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know, like the smaller ones, that well.
Speaker 1:Blaine row was one, and then powers court.
Speaker 3:Powers court is very popular. Yeah, i haven't played either of them, but I've heard a lot of that.
Speaker 1:Great tracks. Honestly, it's absolutely beautiful. Some of the best course I think I've played and ever really it was. It was up. Yeah, courses were good, golfers bad. Same same story as usual. That's alright. Yeah, people are gonna be saying as well that the company was bad as well if they had you on the trip as well. Yeah well, yeah well, it was actually a. It was a mix, that as well. So I think we were the youngest there, 25, and it went up to 82 years old. I think the eldest guy on there was. So it's actually good crack playing with some of the older guys in the second day, but we got drunk under the table like they. They can drink, they can put them down, man, they really can. Am I right in saying I watched the video? the day is, was it a testimony that someone works with you, mike? Haven't you got someone that's like in the 70s?
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, that that guy's pretty inspirational. That's a Paul Brumley is his name. He's maybe 78 now but Yeah, he contacted me probably four or five years ago now And yeah, i just wanted to do something like for his golf, but Almost more so for his health than when he thought he could combine them. He was sort of interested but in in that time frame He's like he's logged Well over a thousand workouts in the app. Oh, he's lost about 70 pounds and a body weight and And come off a lot of like medication.
Speaker 3:He was on for different you know health issues And he's gotten a lot better at golf too, like he. He lowered his handicap from 16 to 8 and probably gained about 30 yards in distance. Yeah, and just just, you know, in way better condition for for life, kind of you know what, whatever about improving a lot of golf. He's just way healthier, has a much better you know health prognosis for the future years, which is good, and It's health problem. Please Sort of more. More fit and able at that age makes a big difference to sort of your everyday tasks and that sort of thing you know.
Speaker 1:I've got a question for you, mike. So obviously, when Tiger Woods came on to the scene, he sort of Made, he had an impact in the sense that he he bought a new level of athleticism to the game of golf. But even After that, i feel like now as an even bigger, the game now relies upon it, even even more so than when he first came on to the to the scene. Do you see that as well? It seems like everyone you know you still, john Daley and David DeVall. At that time they weren't really putting any work in, but now seems like everyone is in the gym before around your social security Chef, the rocket in the US Open here. The gym bug is that. Do you feel like it's at a different level now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely. I think if you look at, you know a lot of sports that have become, say, professional and more recent times, like I almost likened a little bit to professional rugby in Europe, like in Ireland. I don't know exactly how long ago rugby became professional, i think it was like maybe 20 or 30 years ago. But the difference you see in the players if you go back and watch matches and say like 10 year spans or whatever, like the type of people that are playing, are very, very different. And I think, basically what happens when a sport becomes professional or not, not becomes professional because golf has been professional for a long time, but I think the ability to make a really good living from golf has changed a lot over the last you know, 10, 20 years, because there's so much more money in it And you have way more kids who are growing up with the idea of, like, i'm going to be a professional golfer. So where I'm going with that is They're exploring all avenues that are helpful for performance, like you can pick out physical training as one of them, and obviously we can see that visually when we look at players on TV, you know you can see that they're in better physical condition.
Speaker 3:But it's gonna be the same with things like sports psychology, you know, there's gonna be way more players working with those that were in the gym. They're working with those that were in the past. Players have access to like way, way smerker and well-informed engineers who are helping them with their equipment. They're working with stats guys, you know, who are mining through all the shop link data and coming up with strategies that might save Half a stroke around or something like that. So it's just, yeah, physical training is one of them, but players are going down basically every avenue they can to try and improve performance, whereas in the past I think it was a case of, you know, not that no one was interested in this stuff, but I think it was more a case of Like, let's play and practice a lot of golf and see how good I basically, whereas now it's way more of like Here, the players talking about it like the team approach, you know, like all we did well this week or whatever.
Speaker 3:You know people were saying that back in 30 years ago, you know. So, yeah, that's that's what I would think there. And then the other thing that I think is changing. What it is changing is Because golf is a lot cooler now and there's a lot more money in it. Like kids who were, say, who would have before chosen maybe basketball or football or baseball in the US because they were Athletic enough, are now maybe choosing golf as their first pick because golf is cooler, you know. So it's not just the training side of it. You actually have, like, better raw athletes that are taking golf seriously from a younger age. I think that's kind of continue to be the case a little bit, yeah.
Speaker 1:How many people, mike? so I know that you were at the US Open and we had Cal Morris on our first season and we also had I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, but we had the Zach Gold Who's I know Zach, yeah, yeah, so Zach we had the Carl Zach and now obviously talking to you.
Speaker 1:So, at things like the US Open, how much of an entourage that the top players have, because if, if someone's working with you and someone's working with a mind coach, you're talking about a team. What's expected for the top players, expected from your top golfers like your Rory, your Ram? How many people do they have in the background?
Speaker 3:I Say it's a little bit different for all of them, but it wouldn't be, i would say, unusual for some guys, when they're there to have, obviously, a caddy, then they're gonna have a swing coach. Some of them will have a different putting coach to a swing coach. That's reasonably common and And a lot of them will have. A Lot of them would have are a physio with them more so than a trainer. It's probably less common for trainers to travel, but some people's Physio is also their trainer. I'm sure some of them have a psychologist with them and Although some people, i think, tend to do their work with the psychologists like off-site, you know, on week off or it's more remote and things like that, and And then some of them probably travel with a chef, so it could be Five or six that are, i would say, like directly related to some aspect of like coaching or performance.
Speaker 3:But then you're the real top guys are probably gonna have manager there. They They might have an agent if they're, if they're different people and And they're not gonna be directly there with them, but all the players are gonna have access to whatever reps or the equipment truck as well. Like the thing is like some of them just bring some buddies. Some of them just have like friends. It's almost like the show entourage and.
Speaker 3:But yeah, you could, you could easily have maybe five people, i guess, that are directly related to performance, maybe, and then You might have like a manager or an agent or something like that. But then there's other players who literally just travel with their catty, like that's not that uncommon either. There might be guys with a catty and a coach or something like that, you know. So Yeah, that's, that's kind of.
Speaker 1:The. I've seen This sort of tight, excited. I like.
Speaker 3:Actually, sorry, can drop one last one that I forgot about for the top guys, they might also have security, really, yeah, so I don't know if they bring them. I don't think they bring them themselves. Maybe the real top guys do, but definitely, like, the real top players are the real, let's say, notable players, like some of them had two police officers or one police officer assigned to them while they were on the grounds, just for, i guess, just in case. Essentially it's like, yeah, there can be a lot of people hanging around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I completely agree with what you said in terms of golf being one of a sort of performance sport now, as opposed to like a long walk. But obviously I was born in 1997, so I missed Tiger coming onto the scene. I don't remember Obviously you and Tristan Liam on yourself will remember him sort of changing that game, But the how much of an impact. When I think of long hitters, obviously you got your worries and stuff, But they've always sort of risen to the top and I've never really realised how much of a bonus hitting far is until I watched Bryson De Shambow in the US Open and the stats that they put behind that. Is that something you've dealt into before as well? Is that the reason you're on a journey yourself to sort of I think? are you trying to chase crews at 120 on an hour? club at speed?
Speaker 3:Yeah, like I'd kind of be around there at the moment. I definitely enjoy trying to push the speed up. I think where the change in golf with the appreciation for length came was like that The best players in golf have actually always been really long, like no matter how long how far you go back, like like Hagen, snead, hogan, nicholas Woods, like any of the real top players in each generation, like they've all been very, very long hitters. But when it became, i guess, more obvious is when Mark Brody introduced his strokes gained analytics. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Mark Brody. So he wrote a book called Every Shot Counts. I'm not sure what year it was released. I'm going to say maybe 10 or 15 years ago at this point I can't remember probably longer, maybe 15 years or so.
Speaker 3:And basically he's a I don't want to give him the wrong title. He's essentially a maths professor in Columbia University, i think, with a specialization in statistics, and he's a really, really avid golfer, loves golf. So he put his you know, brain power essentially to work on digging through the analytics of golf and came up with statistics to replace, like fairways and regulation greens and regulation pots per round, because he wanted to be able to do a better job of isolating the impact that each element of golf had on separating golfers scores. And when he did that it became very clear that like, oh, wow, like if this player could hit their second shots from this much closer to the green, it's worth X amount per round, which might not sound like that much. But then you have to factor in that each tournament is four rounds And then a season is, you know, maybe 20 or 25 events And you're like, okay, that actually could be worth like half a million or a million or $2 million or 20 spots in the rankings to you know this, you know hypothetical player And that really really caught on with the players, you know then people will talk I don't like talking about it that much, but it's definitely a thing like a lot of people will talk about how the modern ball and the modern driver are so much more forgiving than the old school ball and driver that it's way easier to actually swing at it as hard as you can And you know your mishits are not nearly as bad, which is definitely true.
Speaker 3:But like I don't think Greg Norman, jack Nicklaus, you know Ben Hogan, were holding back a whole lot either, you know they were still the most skillful drivers, which is what you see now with like, let's say, the top drivers at the moment, like Rory Ram Scotty, these guys there's guys just as fast as them, but they're not as skillful, you know. So they can hit it as hard and as hard, but they get into a little bit more trouble. So the advantage is nullified a little bit, you know. So, yeah, that's what I would say.
Speaker 3:The biggest thing is like Tiger, definitely like, especially for like the masses watching on TV like man Tiger's able to drive it over those trees, carry the corner of the dog leg and really opens up the hole. And that's obvious when you're watching it on TV. But what's less obvious is if two guys hit it down the fairway on a pretty straightaway hole And if they're playing with each other for four days in a row and one guy is 12 yards past the other guy, it's likely that if they have the same quality of approach play, it's likely that the guy who's 12 yards closer is going to be hitting it marginally closer to the hole on the good shots, maybe missing the green slightly less. So he might make a couple of more birdies from being a little bit closer to the hole a couple of less bogies, because he's too putting, rather than trying to get up and down And magnifying that over, kind of extrapolating that over the course of a season or a career, you know adds up to huge differences in money and points.
Speaker 2:That's what the big thing is there? Essentially just optimizing their game 100%, definitely So to bring that down to like the amateur level. Now, in terms of the way you approach a new client, are your exercises and your workouts sort of tailored towards the golf swing as a sort of generic activity, if you like, or are you able to tailor the swing to what you might be working on? Because obviously you've got the fitness side of things And then you've got some players, especially if they're sort of really keen and into their game and want to work on their swing and improve their swing, you've also got the coaching side of it. So how do you tie them in together? If you know, if you could be working on your takeaway, you could be working on your speed, you could be working on your rotation. Do you facilitate that as well?
Speaker 3:So I focus almost entirely on the physical preparation side of things. So like the physical training, whether that be essentially like mobility, strength and power, a lot of people will be surprised when they look at the programs in that the vast majority of the exercises in the programs, especially the ones working on building strength, aren't that different or different at all to ones you might see in a program that are for people playing other sports. It's kind of a separate topic. But if you try and have all of your exercises in the gym resemble a golf swing, you'll actually have a pretty hard time getting stronger and more powerful for long periods. Because if you think of how you can actually load an exercise that resembles a golf swing, you run out of options pretty quickly. Like you can use maybe like a cable machine or something like that or you know a band okay, you can throw some medicine balls. But if you kind of work backwards from that a little bit, it's like if I just help somebody get way stronger legs, a way stronger midsection and a way stronger upper body and I make sure they have the mobility to swing the club, will that transfer like, will that show up when they're swinging a golf club? And the answer is 100% Yes, because when you look at athletes from other sports who transfer to golf and have never done a golf specific workout in their life, their speed is through the roof, like that's and that's and that's with swings that are nowhere near, you know, dialed in technically, you know. So to answer your question it was a really good question I focus almost entirely on the physical training side of things. A lot of people will be surprised with how generic most of the training looks in terms of gaining strength and power, where it resembles the golf swing a little bit more is in the mobility work, Because obviously you're going through like ranges of motion and movements that are quite unique compared to other sports. Like, for example, i'll have a golfer and a rugby player and both probably going to be working on lower body strength with things like squats or leg presses, but I'm not going to have a rugby player doing like the same type of mobility work that a golfer might need, if that makes sense. Yeah, especially, you know, if you've like a rugby prop forward, it's like he doesn't need to have great like thoracic mobility or neck rotation, like you're trying to build him into a brick, essentially. And then I am super interested in the swing mechanics side of things And most of my like study in the last, i would say, three years or so has been much more around essentially how speed is created from a swing perspective as opposed to the physical perspective.
Speaker 3:I don't like coach people on that And I don't try and provide programs for the app, but I've used it a lot in my own game And it really really helps when you're talking to either coaches or players that are very keen, like you were saying, and it's like, yeah, i understand what you're talking about And that's that's kind of like, i guess, an area of coaching that a lot of people don't really do, like trying to merge, let's say, s&c, strength and conditioning and golf swing coaching, because it's probably it's probably hard to get really good at both of them And you you'd essentially have to almost do like if you wanted to have legitimate, say, credentials or qualifications in both, you'd essentially need to study like two different courses almost, you know, but definitely very interested in the technique side of stuff, is really really important.
Speaker 3:And then the kind of only input I would say I have in like the actual golf side of things for a lot of players is how, how and when they do like, let's say, their speed training. So, in terms of actually making golf swings, where they're trying to go as fast as they can, which is which is definitely a valuable part of it. So, giving them advice on how to time that around when they're doing their gym work and how to time it around when they're practicing and playing, and that's that's especially important for, like the tour players who are trying to make the absolute most use out of their time. For amateurs, it's usually like do a little bit at the end of a range session or to start a range session, for, you know, 10 minutes or something, if you go to the range two or three times a week, suffices pretty well.
Speaker 2:Are you also an advocate for these? I think I've seen a lot of the tour players who use it. Is it whoop or whoop?
Speaker 1:watches and.
Speaker 2:Apple watches and stuff like that and sort of regulation.
Speaker 3:Not really. To be honest, i actually did a podcast on my podcast with a guy called Brandon Marcello who is like an independent, essentially like researcher into fitness wearables, and essentially his kind of takeaway line from the talk was that the value of these tools are, especially if you're trying to use them to see, like, how fatigued you are, when you should train hard, when you should rest and things like that. I'm not talking about like counting steps or tracking your average heart rate, like that's fine, that's for like general health stuff.
Speaker 3:It's really nice that way, but in terms of like, actually, i would say like guiding, scheduling or making decisions about when you should train or shouldn't train essentially like, his takeaway was that these devices are not yet accurate enough to actually be worthwhile listening to for dictating a training schedule. Where he said they are valuable and I think this is what I have seen too is that if they encourage people to alter their behaviors to like a healthier lifestyle, then they probably have value. But in terms of the actual data, he'd be very, very slow to encourage. people like to use it, especially like some of the stuff that WOOP is measuring. Nobody knows how they're calculating that number, like the strain number and the recovery number, and they don't release their algorithms. So, like, yeah, there's definitely question marks over exactly what it's calculating and what it can tell you.
Speaker 3:And then there is issues too, like measuring HRV with a wrist strap isn't great. trying to measure sleep with something on your wrist is tough. Yeah, like, i'm definitely not an expert on all of them. That's why I interviewed someone who is, and that was kind of his overarching takeaway was that in 10 years or so they might be brilliant. right now, what they're useful for is if they encourage people to change their behavior to healthier lifestyle habits that we all already know about, great. but don't allow the data like upset your training week or you know like. I do not want the PJ talker waking up checking his booth and saying, oh shit, like my recovery was bad, but guess what, i tee off in an hour and a half, or you know what I?
Speaker 3:mean, or I actually feel pretty good. I'm due to a workout today. Whoop is saying I'm slightly under recovered, so this is my chance, like this week, to do my training session. Am I going to skip it? Like? I think that's where they can get a little bit problematic, you know.
Speaker 3:And the other thing that's interesting too is if you look at who has adorned whoop there's been a lot like some of that. You see some of the golfers wearing them. To my knowledge, there is yet to be a sports science department of like a professional sports team. Implement them. Like teams that have in-house sports science departments, say, like professional soccer, australian rules, football, rugby, international Olympic committees. I haven't seen any of them like implement them.
Speaker 3:You know, what I have seen is athletes who are probably getting paid a truckload of money by whoop to have them on their wrist or bicep when they're playing on TV. But like I have heard people, i do know people who are like oh, since I got the whoop, i'm way more cognizant of what time I go to sleep. When I stop eating in the evening, like I don't have as many beers, it's like okay, like we all already know that that stuff is good for us. If you need the whoop and you want to pay whatever the monthly fee is to keep you on top of it, it's fine. But I don't think like the data is something that I would use to structure training week.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You absolutely smash the ball, Mike. If people go on your Twitter and have a look at your swings, you absolutely hammer the ball It's. I told Liam before you came on that your swing is like it looks great. So are you an actual good golfer, Are you? what's your handicap?
Speaker 3:I'm just under scratch at the moment. So my exact handicap is plus 0.3. Right now I find a hover between plus two and one. For the last, i guess two years or so has been. That's kind of been my range, basically.
Speaker 1:How about, funny, you getting out?
Speaker 3:I'm lucky in that I can put a decent amount of time into practice and play. So I don't have any kids and I'm self-employed. So I play, generally play 18 twice a week, like we're nearly halfway through the year, and I've played I think 26 rounds 26, 18 whole rounds. And we have 12 months of golf weather here as well, which makes a big difference. But pretty much every day that I don't play I put an hour or 19 minutes into practice. That's insane.
Speaker 1:That is to be fair. I was talking to Liam, what this is today. The golfer I had in mind was Gordon. am I saying Gordon Sargent? Yes, and he's like 19 or something like that. I'm not sure he's really young. Do you see the baseline swing speeds of players across the general? I knew this would be related to swing speed. Honestly, I'm really curious.
Speaker 1:Because now it seems like when, obviously, kids were growing up when I was growing up as well I was told don't try and hammer the ball. What you're trying to do is try and hit the ball. But then I look at Tiger Woods and his dad saying to him you can hit it as hard as you can and you say balanced. Do you think now we're coming to a new generation of golfers where they obviously I know we've touched upon training, but then I'm swinging as hard as they can, whilst learning to hit the ball when they younger is probably one of the most impactful things that they can do?
Speaker 3:100% Like, without question, and it's one of the things that the players who are slightly older on tour will tell you is different to when they were coming up to players that are coming up now that have either just gotten out on tour or are in their teenage years or in college.
Speaker 3:They understand the stats that we talked about earlier. They have launch monitors for really good feedback, which are also kind of like addicting, because you're always trying to see if you can bump the speeds up and also they're being encouraged. So like if you, if you have a serious golfer, that's like I would say like in their teenage years or in college. Now, like you can be sure him and his buddies are working on like who has a higher swing speed, who is a higher ball speed And where a lot of, where a lot of people kind of go wrong is they're like golf has now just turned into who can smash it the furthest, and it's like no, that's not why it is. It's that loads and loads of them are going to be able to smash it really far, and that's the case. If you don't smash it really far, how are you going to beat all of them? You know what I mean. Like when there's that many of them, it's like it's almost like a prerequisite with. It's not that hitting it really far will guarantee that you're going to be one of the best golfers. It's that if you don't hit it really far, there's going to be so many of them that hit it really far and are good at everything else, you're just at a big, big disadvantage. You know, like I know he's just gone through like a point I saw brought up on TV recently and I know he's won two majors and he's had a great career to date. But it's kind of an example of what we're talking about here is Mark Howe is, by his standards, struggling a little bit at the moment. Like he's gone down to, i think, 19th or so in the World Rankings. And you know he was a can't miss kids, you know, a couple of years ago. He's obviously still really good at not saying Mark Howe is not a world-class golfer but he's pretty much right on PGA tour average for, say, swing speed, ball speed, distance, and he was paired with Scottie Scheffler for the first two rounds in the US Open in LA a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 3:And what a lot of people don't realize about Scottie is he's actually picked up a lot of speed in the last two years. He's gone from like one 16 to 120 club head speed, which is a difference in about like six miles an hour of ball speed, which is a lot at that level And one of the things the commentators talked about, he was like man. I did not realize how much further Scottie hit it than Mark Howe. And the reason why Mark Howe is able to be the player he is is Mark Howe is literally the best iron player we've seen since Tider. But that's what he has to have, otherwise he can't compete with Scottie. Ram, rory, cam Young, these guys I'm probably missing a couple of others that are really really long But these guys that are up in the top echelons of golf, that are bumping up past them. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:It's like yeah there's.
Speaker 3:There's lots of other guys that hit it the same distance as Mark Howe, but they're also average iron players, so we don't ever really talk about them because they're not winning tournaments or at the top of rankings.
Speaker 3:The reason why Mark Howe can be at the top or near the top of the rankings when he's at his best, even though he's short, is because he's literally one of the best iron players of all time, whereas if he didn't have that, he'd be way back. So it's the case of the next guy's coming up. It's like oh you're, you're tour average and distance. So how are you cracking into the top 25 or the top 20 or the top 10? Are you telling me you're going to be better than those guys by so much in something else that you can make up for that last distance? Like if Scotty is 15 or 20 past Mark Howe every time they pull a drive route, mark Howe needs to be exceptional at doing everything else for four rounds, you know, and some days he does because he's such a good iron player, but like that just gets really, really hard, you know.
Speaker 2:Is there a consideration with these guys on tour, though, in terms of one is being able to hit it far? They're also knowing when to hit it far, and the reason I'm asking this question is because Jamie Donaldson is an honorary member of our local golf club and he hosts a pro-arm every year and one of the members hit a drive on a par five and he left himself. It was a monster drive and he left himself something like 56 yards into the pin And Jamie Donaldson was scooting around in a buggy and stopped to watch him hit his second shot as a pro-trak. Anyways, he ended up duffing it And when he got into the clubhouse at the end he said look, it's really nice to meet you.
Speaker 2:It's just a shame that I duffed my shot in front of you. He said out of interest, jamie, what would you have done there? You know I had 56 yards in and Jamie said well, considering you're able to hit it so far, you are a bit silly giving yourself a shot where you're playing a fiddly half swing, three-quarter swing always play for a full shot. So is there a consideration for that on tour, or do they just? presumably the tall guys are able to hit 56 yard shots? 57 yard shots, just.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so like obviously you can sound stupid very quickly, disagreeing with like a tour player or former tour player. In terms of like statistics, almost everybody is better as they get closer to the hole, except for in a couple of very, very unusual scenarios, like with you know, maybe like an extremely like challenging lie, like if it was 56 yards off a very severe downslope with the ball of blow. maybe then you're better from 90 or 100, then you are from 56. Or if you have, i don't know, there's actually not many. The other one would be like there are certain players and it would be amateur players who have.
Speaker 3:Maybe, like the Ips are really really hard times with those half-wed shots. In those circumstances then, yeah, maybe there's a consideration for laying back, but in the vast, vast majority of cases I don't know if you guys follow Lou Stagner on Twitter He posts a lot of Gal Stath, he's posted about this a few times and he's like, in general, like the overwhelming numbers, chipping and pitching if it means you're short-sighted, but that's not the case with a 56 yard fairway shot On tour. I would say it's similar, like unless there's some, you know, unusual reason why the 56 yard shot in that case would be worse than laying further back. Almost all the time they prefer to be closer. There is, yeah, some very, very unusual scenarios where being back might be better, but like they're really really rare. Like one of the strongest, like correlations are.
Speaker 3:One of the most universal truths in golf is that, in general, closer to the hole means better almost always In terms of knowing when to hit it hard. Like there's definitely still some strategy where players, like players don't hit drive run every par-4 and par-5 because there are holes where the landing area where their drive would be ending up either, like literally doesn't have any fairway there. You know it might be a hole that has, like you know, water running across it, or you know there's like a drop off or something like that, and or it's just super narrow. But kind of a side point to that that I think people often don't consider is when we're thinking about one player being, let's say, 15 or 20 yards longer than another player, we always visualize like a straight hole. We always think of a par-4 or par-5 going straight ahead where it's like, okay, i have 150 to the green, but Liam has 130 to the green. Like okay, like that's cool.
Speaker 1:But it's not like you know a huge deal.
Speaker 3:Sure, I prefer to be 130 and 150, but it's like you know it's not massively changing the game Where things like change a lot on tour and this doesn't show up in the average driving distance statistics because those stats are taken from two holes per round, only on flat holes to try and keep it standardized.
Speaker 3:When you start getting to dog lights, our holes that have a little bit of an angle, that's when you really see the longer players can make a massive, massive separation from the shorter players.
Speaker 3:Like some of the lines that Rory takes on dog lights, where he's literally aiming like at the green, even though the hole is, you know, with this big loop around, and he's like like you see him lined up and he's not even in relation to like where the team actors are lined up or where the fairway is. He's like lined up over these trees and he's carrying it like 315 or something and he's cutting off the hole. But then you have a guy who say carries it like 285, which is pretty much like 288 as PGA tour average. So let's say, if you have a guy who's slightly shorter than average and he's carrying it like 280 or 282, he probably has to hit it down to the corner of the dog leg and now go up. So the like the 20 yards that Rory is longer than them, or the 30 yards Rory is longer than them, that could honestly be changed to like 60, based on the angle of the hole And like that's where it makes a massive difference.
Speaker 3:Because if that's something like a par 5 and this guy is maybe, let's say, hitting a wood or he can't reach, but Rory is hitting like a six iron or what I'm just giving an example, if that happens a couple of times around, like that's eight times a tournament, like you know, like people often think of, like the advantages of distance, like on a one hole basis, it's like, well, if I'm 120 out of 140 out on this hole, that doesn't really matter that much, if you're playing 72 of them, it does.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like I know there will be par 3s tied in, but like there's going to be some holes, then when it's just a massive difference, like where you see some of the angles they can take, or even if it's like maybe some like really say severe fairway bunkers that certain players are like if I hit driver, it's going to roll into this bunker. Let's say if let's say if the fairway, let's say if the bunker is at 305, there's going to be some players in there, like if I hit driver, it goes in the bunker and I can't reach the green. So I'm hitting three wood 275 and I now have 200 yards in, whereas some of the players are like, cool, i can carry a 310. I'm hitting it over that bunker and I now have 130 and or something like that. That's where some of the like big, big gaps show up.
Speaker 1:Mike, i want to ask you something before we move on to the quiz quickly. So you were born and raised in Cork, yeah, yeah, and now you live in California. Where is it? in California again? Newport Beach, newport Beach, california. I'm going to force you to give an answer. Someone's going on their dream golf holiday. Do they go to Island or do they go to California?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Oh Island.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Easy, yeah, that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:I haven't seen Pebble Beach, but I went to California last year and there was also. We drove past some courses. They were nice, but looking at courses on Scotland and Ireland And I suppose partly Wales, because we are welfare biased, but I just think that there's something about British courses. I don't know if it's because we're British, but it appeals to me much more. Yeah, no, i think. When I went to Pebble Beach and I watched the US Amateur, it was amazing, it was a great experience And obviously, with the millions of visitors that Pebble Beach has a year you're asking for one person's opinion here But it didn't feel as special as it would be. You know we play St Andrews, didn't we? And that's obviously the home of golf and that's different again, but Pebble Beach just didn't. I don't know. It was just like a really pristine, amazing golf course, like a lot of the American golf courses are. When you come onto home soil here, there's something about them, isn't there, knowing that they're links courses and you play them at the right time.
Speaker 3:Like I do know people who have played Pebble Beach and they said that it did like live up to expectations and it was the best golf experience they've ever had in their lives. But yeah, like there, i would definitely pick playing some of the courses in Ireland or the UK, overcoming to California for a Valtteri. But the thing here too like is that a lot of the courses that like you hear about and see on TV, they might be private clubs. So unless you've got friends in high places, you're just not playing them, whereas most of the clubs in Ireland or the UK like you can get on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay, right Time for the quiz. Mike, you're going to need to know that Josh is undefeated so far And although the rules kind of change weekly and we still don't know what the rules platform is, basically long story short is, is I kind of make up the win at the end? depend on, but Liam is 0 and 2 to Josh.
Speaker 1:Liam owes Josh two pints, not sure how he's going to make a payment from you, mike, if he does beat you, but you're going to owe him a pint if he does Right. Well, paypal's fine, Mike, you got that, yeah, yeah yeah. Cool, it's international Right Question one, and it's just say it out loud. Okay, so what do Bill Murray, adam Sandler, shirela Booth and Kevin Costner have in common? Or the golf film. Josh got there first. Oh, no way, josh got there first. Yeah, this might be a delay with Mike being in California.
Speaker 2:What were the?
Speaker 1:golf films? That isn't. This is just a separate question. What were the golf films?
Speaker 2:Happy Gilmore Yeah.
Speaker 1:Legend of Bag of Anse. was that one, Yeah?
Speaker 2:Tinkos.
Speaker 1:Tinkirk, now Tinkirk, yeah, and the last one was Bill Murray Caddyshack. Yeah, well done, yeah, nice.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 3:Wait, no, you don't.
Speaker 1:Question two This might catch people out Who finished second at the Open at St Andrews, cam Smith.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Cam Young. Yeah, mike, you're not going to get it because you gave an answer right.
Speaker 2:Damn, i didn't know. I keep confusing myself with Cam Young and Sam Burns, so you didn't get the idolium.
Speaker 1:No, But no points for anyone there. then It was Cam Young. He eagled the last.
Speaker 2:He did.
Speaker 1:He did what everybody wanted Rory to do. I was sick in my stomach after that.
Speaker 3:I was not broken. I was dying hungover that morning as well. It was on morning time here and we'd had a friend's wedding the night before, so it was not good for morale. You get a peak just as you get back to it.
Speaker 1:Oh, when it turned you, what was more devastating and more of a mental blow? It wasn't the last hole, it was the up and down. Cam Smith, yeah, 17th. That was like that was just saying I'm a robot.
Speaker 3:Right, but I don't think anybody watching ever thought he was going to miss the pot. You were just like no, he's all in crap. He's like this is going in.
Speaker 1:Do you know the? this is a digress quickly here now, but it's two rounds now. I've been like it was the US open a couple weeks ago I'm not saying I'm just wrong When I just thought Lauren get it done. I don't know what it is, but I'm hoping he'll do it at Hoi Lake.
Speaker 2:I think it's that I do.
Speaker 1:I think you'll do it I like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I presume he's he's driven up something and he's sort of getting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's definitely getting better. The only thing I don't know about Hoi Lake like is I think, like obviously, winning any golf tournament is hard when all the best players are there. I think when they go to the British open there's a little bit more of a lottery element in it, i think, because it's so different to what they play week in, week out. It's so bouncy, it's such a different style of golf. It's like there's just more. I think, like weird stuff can kind of happen. You know, like I think.
Speaker 3:I think Rory's best chances of majors are on like really hard at PGA tour type setups. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:He's obviously one there before, like, but I just when people are talking about when's his next one. I never, even though he had a good chance last year. I just, for some reason maybe it's my bad, but I never looked at it open as the one where I know, yeah, you don't always think like. Yeah, i think of like a US Open Style course for PGA course or Augusta, like yeah, i can see that Like you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, hopefully.
Speaker 1:I'm wrong. 2024 Masters would be a good one. Yeah, um, okay. Question three how many points are needed to win the ride, the cup? 12, and a half. No, so, liam, 14. Oh what, yeah, 14 and a half, it's. No, you don't, it is 14 and a half. Yeah, yeah, that's your first 30 and a half, or 14 and a half, yeah.
Speaker 2:He's not at the point in three weeks.
Speaker 1:No, I believe that as well. What did you say? Mike's 12 and a half? Yeah, 14 and a half. Mike looks like you know. Oh, Josh, you're fine, I'm just saying.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 1:We've got one each. Everyone's got one each. No, actually, yeah, this is the thing. This is my point. I don't even know who's winning or not. That's why I kind of make Question four This isn't. This isn't how many left handed golfers have won. How many left handed major wins have there been? I'm going to take your first guess as your answers Six, okay, eight, okay, liam's quick 5, 8, 11. Okay, you're all wrong, so I'll let you all go again 10., 9. I'm just gonna go 11. Be a, be a, it's 10. Baaah, bubba, 2. So you've got Bob Charles in 1963. Oh, that's right listen.
Speaker 2:And then you've got Mike.
Speaker 1:Weir, Yeah. And then the rest of them are Bubba and.
Speaker 3:Phil. Yeah, my first answer was for Masters. I showed him the Masters number instead of majors.
Speaker 1:Isn't that crazy. There's only been four left-handed major winners.
Speaker 3:But if you think back like we haven't had many good left-handed golfers No, i'm left-handed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're on your shit, mate, Yeah, so Yeah. I'm not a true Mike's point.
Speaker 3:Right now you have Phil, but he's like 52. Yeah, Bobby McIntyre, the guy Higo. Garrick Higo, yeah, he's a good player, like he won on the PJ Tour.
Speaker 1:Brian Arman Yeah, brian Arman, it is Ash Ash Cape Batier, ash Cape Batier. Yeah, yeah, he's a lefty, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Maybe they're making a comeback.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe, but what's interesting about lefties is me and Mickelson are the same, the sense that we're actually right-handed, yeah, but you just left-handed golfers, yeah.
Speaker 3:I'd say, I'd say there's. I'd actually be curious to know what the rest of them are like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think they are, i think. When I was younger I was obsessed with left-handed golfers, obviously because I was the only one who was left-handed, and I think I Googled it at the time and I might be wrong here, but I think Mike Weir is as well. It's either. Mike Weir is Phil, it's Phil.
Speaker 3:Or so you said like Phil, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think Phil is and Mike Weir, but also I think someone like one of the big players. I'm not going to bother guessing the name, but they're left-handed but play right-handed as well.
Speaker 1:So, it's interesting really, isn't it? Yeah, question five. So Liam's actually in the lead then, isn't he? Oh, yeah, i think he is. Yeah, two, one, one. If I made a trip up this one, it's because this is where I'm going in the summer with the family. If I made a triple bogey on the first hole at Royal Litham and St Anne's, what would my score be? Six? Yeah, well done, josh. That was a shot in the dark. I swear for a par three start. That's the par three. It's a lovely golf course, but I can't help to say that it's like I've always hated when golf courses start with par threes. Yeah, you don't want like a five iron.
Speaker 1:No in your hand. No, Okay, so that's a draw. I'm still going to call Josh undefeated, So fair play to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you?
Speaker 1:That's the question, though No, because it actually quite like, like if you've got a sudden death question.
Speaker 3:Let me think.
Speaker 1:Okay, right, this week's debate, Frustratingly, tiger Woods has pulled out of the open And, as you'd always expect, there's always this now like when's he coming back? and he's meant to announce his return soon. For me personally, i know where I stand on this, but what I want to offer the debate is should Tiger Woods return to that level of golf at all? Yes, you reckon. Yes. Okay, i'm going to go out and say I don't know anymore. I'm virgin, closer to no, and the reason for that is I don't think he's ever going to reach that pinnacle again And I know he doesn't need to reach our pinnacle, he's not doing it for us.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, every time he steps out on the golf course now that image we had, that enigma that he's become just takes a hit, just takes a hit every time, to the point where I'm like watching him limp off and I'm like, tiger, come on, pack it in now. We've had the best time with you as our hero. Now it's time to kind of you know, i don't know, is it even working for you anymore? Go on, mike, you can. Okay, i'm going to say no. What was the question?
Speaker 3:again, should Tiger Woods, he's going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%, yeah, 100%. I don't want him carrying on with crutches. And when you say pinnacle, do you mean like the golf who's playing the 2000, like the standard of a winner major? No, yeah, i would say, yeah, he's. I think he's won his last major. And if he, if he does manage to return and he does win a PGA tour event which is special, i'm not saying but how special is it really going to feel for us? Well, we want him to do.
Speaker 3:I think he's. I think he's a better chance of winning a major than a PGA tour event, though Yeah. I think he's a better chance of winning the British Open than any PGA tour event? Yeah, and he might. He might have a better chance of winning. He has a better chance of winning at Augusta and he has a better chance of winning a British Open than he does a regular PGA tour event.
Speaker 1:Do you think he can still?
Speaker 3:compete at Augusta If he, if he's able to walk it. Yes, because the only other reason he wouldn't be able to is if his body was in a way that wouldn't allow him hit it far enough. But we know for sure that's not the case from his most recent return, because he was up at like 175 to 180 balls when he played in Riviera this year for the first couple of days, which is like above PGA tour average. He's he's still a better approach player player than most of the PGA tour And, like chipping and putting, to be honest, in majors is less important than it is in regular well, definitely, putting is less important than it is in regular PGA tour events because there's so much more punishment for bad balls striking And so, yeah, i do think he should keep going when he can. Honestly, i wonder what Tiger's life is like without golf. If he feels like that. There's no, if he doesn't have golf as something to work towards, i wonder what sort of headspace he's in and how his days are filled, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's kind of like you know, you see the boxers coming back and it's like, yeah, what's he doing coming back, like you know, it's like, well, what goes on in his life when there's no, no boxing, when there's nothing to train for nothing? kind of you know, yeah, i'm in mind.
Speaker 2:To be fair, though, he's had quite the adventurous life, even while still playing.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, yeah, i mean, that's what he might be trying to stay away from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. But I think, like he said to himself to me was it his last comeback, where he just said look, if I didn't think I could go out there and win, then I wouldn't be making this comeback. And I think as long as he thinks that he's able to compete with these guys on tour, then he's never going to hang up his boots. You'll see him, like you know, tom Watson, bloody in his.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say, like Tom Watson nearly won the British Open. like Tiger is a far more likely winner of the British Open for the next 20 years. Yeah yeah, tom Watson was when he nearly won it. Yeah, like he won. It's not that like. Was it 2090? anyone the Masters? Yeah Like.
Speaker 1:But he's had this, he's had more injuries since then. and what I would say, just to be pessimistic, is Tom Watson didn't win, did he? I wanted him to win desperately, but he didn't win, you know.
Speaker 3:I just think with. So if you told Tiger you're going to be in a playoff for the British Open, do you want to play it? Yes, it's worth it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, obviously. I mean we joke and we say things like what would you give, what would you actually sacrifice to see Tiger winning in a major and embarrassingly, i think it's a lot. You know, i would never have this conversation with my wife because she'd probably be like what you'd give? you'd give it one of our two children to see.
Speaker 2:Tiger.
Speaker 1:But the fact of the matter is I just don't see it anymore. When it came to the US, to the 2019 Masters, i was like, no, i can't do it. But in my mind I was like, come on, you've been proven wrong. I just genuinely to come from where he's come from first, and to come from where he's come from right now, i don't know, is it? are we not just better off taking stock and going, wow, best, one of the best athletes ever, first sports billionaire, first person to transcend, kind of what is a golfer, every memory we've got of him, and just go.
Speaker 1:Thanks, tiger, like no that's not your, that's not a choice you haven't. I don't think you could say no, and you can say you don't think, but that's not your. Choice is when he inevitably comes back. Now he's going to play to the standard, but it makes you think you're not yet he could win another one.
Speaker 2:It's irrelevant of how he plays. His fans are too loyal. Three of us are on the table now, have grown up watching Tiger. Tiger is the one for us who you know if he's part of of an event, then you have an extra interest in that event. Josh is someone who, like he said earlier, who sort of missed Tiger in his prime but, because but you're close enough to know what Tiger's done for golf.
Speaker 2:So by the time anyone's not interested in Tiger Woods really like Mike says, it's going to be 20 years down the line before anyone's. Kind of like I'm not really bothered if he's playing in an event or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think he'll win one. I think I went into the major. I think I'll get to 16. I don't want to be I think. I agree with Mike. I think I think it'll be the open. I hope so. Well, you don't make your pessimist on the me, mike and Liam, when Tiger here's this podcast mate You're going to get my passes.
Speaker 3:I'd like to thank you for the more for the more Winning speech is winners.
Speaker 1:I'd probably say to him that listen, i've always been team Phil.
Speaker 2:I don't know the words that you could say to do.
Speaker 3:I think Phil say again Mike, Do you know what?
Speaker 1:it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell. I'm going to probably be pessimistic and say no, but I think Phil has a better chance than Tiger.
Speaker 3:I think Phil.
Speaker 1:He's genuinely someone because look at the work he's put into his body and ability and his shape to hit the golf ball. As a golfer he's absolutely sublime. Because you look at his career, we had the question last week I think was it how many tall wins he has. It was 45. That's crazy in Tiger's era Tiger was playing. It's crazy numbers. I don't know. I'd always watch out for.
Speaker 2:Phil.
Speaker 1:If Phil was to win the US Open. That's something I'd love to see.
Speaker 3:I don't see that now. to be honest, I don't think Phil would know that He could. but they're just so hard to win, man. There's people asking how many will so and so win. when they talk about Mark Howard E Rory DJ, They may never win another one.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It's what never won one Fleetwood's never, won one Monty never won one Sergio.
Speaker 2:While people are talking about people winning majors. I don't think Rory will ever win the Masters. I hope I'm wrong, but I honestly think that the year he flunked it was it 2012 or 2013. I think that's that actually too deeply in his mental Right.
Speaker 1:so this is you hold on Trist. you pissed off Tiger and now you've pissed off Rory. And now he listens to these at all now.
Speaker 3:I think that's a hard bet. I'd like to see the odds on that. Will Rory win the Masters? That's only once a year. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:He has how many?
Speaker 3:more chances, say he's 33. Does he say realistic chances are until he's maybe 46, 45? Would you say 10, 12, 15.
Speaker 1:Are you going to ask how good is his driving and how long is he going to be at that age? Because that's his bread and butter. Would you still say yeah? Well, he's been getting longer His speed's only been going up since his late 20s to early 30s.
Speaker 3:So I could see him keeping it where he is now until he's in his very late 30s and having lost very little if at all, in his early 40s. I worked with Charles Howell for a little bit. He was like 43 and 4 at the time and he hadn't lost any speed from when he was 35.
Speaker 1:Geez, that's insane. My actual quick question for you my officer before your lab so I was at a Charles Trist is giving the order into the fitness area of golf. How hard is it going to be for Tiger to get himself back to where we think he'll?
Speaker 3:get to. So what I think is most encouraging about Tiger is when he was coming back. We all see the list of injuries that he has. It's posted every time he saw if he would come back. What I thought the case was going to be is that Tiger would just be so broken that he'd be hitting it like 270 off the tee and he'd be against the place where he was like 310, 320. But his distance was literally in advantage. He was hitting it as long as Ram and Scotty. He was longer than JT in speed. I'll put it this way it's far easier to build up the ability to walk 4 rounds of golf than it is to swing a driver at 118 or 20 miles an hour. We all know the skill level that's required to walk around the golf. Fair enough, injuries are going to hamper that, but that's way easier than your body's broke. You would be telling one of the guys on the seniors tour okay, let's jack up the ball speed by 10 or 15 miles an hour. They're not going to happen.
Speaker 3:But if someone comes back from a knee replacement or a bad injury and it's like do you think you can build up the capacity to walk 4 rounds without pain? I don't know, maybe it's much more likely.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Alright, guys, i think it's time for us to bow at episode 3. That's been brilliant. thank you for taking the time. I know it's in the middle of your day as well, so we're thankful for that, and hopefully you'll come on again with us in the future. It's been really insightful. Yeah, it has been. Your app Fit for Golf is available on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you can download it in the app store just by looking up Fit for Golf. You actually need to create your account on my website, fitforgolfapp, and kind of what's worth noting for people there is. I'm actually in the middle of having a new app developed. It's going to be the same idea but just a way better platform and user experience, and that's going to be launched in November, hopefully, so the current app will be running until then. If anyone wants to sign up now, there'll just be a crossover when that time comes. They don't need to worry about waiting or anything like that. Yeah, that's just something that's worth noting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll put the links to them and to your socials and stuff in the things that we put out on our socials as well. Perfect, it's good, right, that's it from us.
Speaker 2:Josh just sent us a message.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that isn't it, i think so, yeah, i might as well. Thanks, Mike.
