Start from Scratch
If there’s one thing that always stirs up a debate for our family… it’s golf. Some of us provide sensible, measured and articulate points. Others, chat complete s**t from start to finish. You can decide who’s who for yourselves!
Start from Scratch
S2 E13: Exploring Orka Golf with Alex Comben, the World of Owning a Golf Brand and a Deep Dive into the Ryder Cup
We've got an exciting episode lined up, where we explore the intricacies of the golf world with our special guest, Alex Comben. Alex owns Orka Golf!
We recap on our match at Hoylake, but no spoilers! The conversation gets even better as we bring in our good friend, Mike Thelwell Jones.
Tune in to learn why Alex is not too keen on paying tour players to use his clubs. We also navigate the complexities of the golf industry, putting under the microscope how brands often market products that do not necessarily improve performance. We all agree that custom fitting is a game-changer in golf.
And just when you thought it couldn't get any more interesting, we spice it up with a good golf quiz and an in-depth conversation about the Ryder Cup. The burning question is, what could be the potential outcomes of the matches? We scrutinize the teams and debate the possible impact of golfers moving from the PGA Tour to the LIV Tour on the Ryder Cup.
Sure, I'll probably say that in a fair share If you don't say shaft, don't matter, you'll be alright.
Speaker 3:Ah what did I tell you? What did I tell you the other day?
Speaker 2:What the hell is wrong with you If you come out with a To your people who say shaft don't matter, genuinely should have a nappy on their face. They talk so much shit. Ha ha, ha, ha, ha ha ha. I'm floddmer language, sorry, sorry.
Speaker 3:Welcome to episode 13,. I think it's 13. It's around 13,. Let's say episode approximately 13. Yeah, my favourite number, just FYI, if that ever comes up in a quiz. Yeah, it is. Weirdly, although the timings of the podcast are a little bit out for us at the minute because we've been doing double recording weeks with Josh and me and people being away. We have actually been to play a Hoi Lake match last Thursday and we're recording on a Monday night, so I'm not going to tell you what the result was, because I want you to watch it and I want you to subscribe and do all that nonsense that people beg you to do online. That's now us. It's worth it and a comment, no more on that. I would like to welcome the person who was there to witness the result on the golf, mike Talville Jones, who was the member at Hoi League. So Mike's joining us tonight. Hi, mike.
Speaker 1:Hi Josh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all good, all good. Still, do you know what I was telling a friend of mine about? He asked about the condition of Hoi League today. So again, just to reiterate a big thank you for letting us on there. But that course was something else. I really enjoyed it, really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you guys had fun. It's always a pleasure bringing people to play there and just to see what they think, especially in it, especially in opening. Obviously, the course is recovering really well from having obviously the biggest tournament in golf and there's not that much evidence of anyone was ever there. No stands left, obviously, a few bits to the side of the fairways and stuff where the hospitality was and the biggest stands. You can see that something was there, but the actual course itself was pretty much back to normal now.
Speaker 3:For me, actually, it was really interesting to see what was cut in order to put the stands in, because when you play a golf course, let's say one year after it's held the Open, there really is no evidence left of the Open Championship, whereas I think for us last week there was, because there would be golf bushes in places there wasn't. There would be thicker earth in places that there wasn't. But what's fascinating is, in terms of the area on the floor, the grandstands don't take that much room because obviously they're built vertically. But you look at them and you think where do you get that type of room to put such a big grandstand? But then you see where they've cut and you think I was sat in this grandstand and actually I haven't taken that much room of the golf course. So it makes you think actually, that a lot more golf courses could hold prestigious events because you wouldn't need that much room to place grandstands, would you?
Speaker 1:I think it depends on the site, to be honest, but I think Hoileaks got blessed in the sense that it has quite a lot of room around the greens where you can sight stands like that. Obviously, 17 being a completely new hole, we weren't sure where they were going to put things. Obviously thought there'd be one around the tee because there is space there, but I wasn't sure whether they'd managed to fit one in around the green anywhere. But obviously they did have the one on the right-hand side. If you look at it from the tee, that was very popular with spectators and it very quickly became the place to go and watch the golf from, despite the fact that from there, even if you're a sat in that stand, you can obviously look out over the whole course back towards the clubhouse, but you can obviously see Pro City into 17,. You might possibly be able to see them hit off 15 tee as well. Don't think you can see 14 green from there.
Speaker 1:So from a spectator point of view, you really are kind of focusing on that one shot because you feel it's really important to watch, and the 17 creating the buzz that it did was obviously great for the event and to see the fact that we had a one hole in one and I certainly saw at least one triple bogey live. So I feel like it played kind of as what most people expected that it would. And obviously if you'd like to see how we got on, then I'm sure there'll be another video of that coming out, which is always interesting. And I think I will say on the match that I was privileged privileged is privileged, the right word privileged to witness on Thursday, isn't it? It's definitely worth seeing there's some golf played. I'll say that.
Speaker 3:Cheers, mike. I appreciate that there were some golf played. Do you know what? On the topic of the actual course before, I don't want to ramble on too much but, like you were saying, just a grandstand Osh who came, who's been on the pod before, and he came with us. We were talking and we were saying how much smaller it looks as a golf course as opposed to an event Like when I was watching it it looked like, honestly, like they were miles apart, the grandstands and stuff, but when you actually play it you realize how much smaller it is. The other thing I was shocked at as well was and you've very kindly pointed it out, you'll see it in the video, in the videos that we play how much further back the pros and tees were. We were playing like 420, 430, sometimes 450, our par 4s, and they were from pretty much the front.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had another 30 or 40, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I couldn't believe it. These guys are the best players on the planet and the fact that Brian Harmon shot was it 13 under for 4 outs was the fact that he is one of the very best, the best golfers on the planet. He was the best golfer on the planet that week and I really hope over time that he gets the recognition for that win, because to watch it as a fan and a member of the golf course was something else. The strategy involves I'm not sure whether I said it to you guys on Thursday, but I've certainly said it recently to other people Hoi Lake is a really technically demanding golf course and particularly for the pros, because it's not always driver, it's not just bomb and gouge.
Speaker 1:You can't necessarily get away with bomb and gouge in an open and Brian Harmon hit quite a lot of fairways and holds a lot of putts, which is obviously the key to winning a lot of golf tournaments.
Speaker 1:But I think, particularly at an open where the weather wasn't the best and obviously they bring the fairways in, they're playing it off 7,200 yards. It's really important to do the basics in that sense. And if you think about it as well, they played 10 as a par 4, which is obviously the par 5 for the members, but also it was a par 5, I believe, in 2014. So actually in real terms, hit 17 of them when you think about it like that, which is obviously very similar to Rory and Tiger Scores when they won their opens at Hoi Lake, and I really think it's up there with a top major win and I really hope over time, that he gets the credit for that, because I don't think, unfortunately, that he did on a round, obviously around the day and the couple of days after winning the event. Unfortunately, obviously some of the fans got on him as well, because obviously he wasn't Rory or Tommy, which everybody would have wanted to see a Rory or Tommy win there. I think 95% of the crowd would have anyway.
Speaker 3:I hope he doesn't get any credit for it because he's not Rory, he's not Tommy. Yeah, you said that. You said that the day after the game.
Speaker 1:Hang on a second Trist. You're a left-hander, Exactly, Mike.
Speaker 3:Surely left-hander's union counts for something Left-hander's done with that many majors We've talked about this, I think extensively within the family, but even I was saying as a left-handed golfer, as a feeder, as everything I was like, even I was like he does put better than you, trist to be fair. I think he puts, better than anyone in the history of golf, 58 from 59 within 10-40.
Speaker 1:That was outstanding. That is going to get the job done round anyway, but especially at Ho-Lake in Major Weekend.
Speaker 3:You're short-sighted yourself and you're like Consider it such a flat course. It's quite a flat course, but if you miss the green, it's the total opposite of a flat course.
Speaker 1:They've worked really hard on the green. They've worked really hard to shape the run, especially on 12-14. They also took a lot of the course out behind the 12th green so you can see Hillbore Island better. I think that adds a lot to the aesthetic of the hole as well. But they worked really hard on shaping the runoff. So not just that On the fourth as well to provide a short-game challenge If you miss the green getting up and going to test your brain.
Speaker 3:I think it would be a good idea for Alex Orca to introduce himself, but just before we do bring him on, Alex owns a golf brand called Orca Golf. Mike, you're good friends with him as well, aren't you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm an alpha for a good few years.
Speaker 3:It's going to be interesting for me and Josh to know about the inside of the world of owning a golf brand, so let's get him on. Hi Alex, how's it going?
Speaker 2:Here's the man, how are we doing, fellas yeah?
Speaker 1:good.
Speaker 2:Good to see you, buddy. Yeah, good good mate, good good MJ, good to see you. Man Still trying to grow out a goat, do you see?
Speaker 1:Not intentionally mate. This is just about MJ for three days.
Speaker 2:Well, at least you started puberty, mate.
Speaker 1:Correct. See, this is why I can't go for him on here, because he's too quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry boys, I'll try and dumb it down, yeah.
Speaker 3:No, no, we like that. I love the fake background there.
Speaker 2:You're obviously sat in your kitchen or something, aren't you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was trying to say to Mike, I'm in the room in your house. You know, when you just put all your shit, I've got about seven different categories of house shit in this one room. So I thought why not just put the St Andrews background on and hide it all?
Speaker 2:Bless you man. You could have gone with it and said no, I'm actually there, I'm sound.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you'd probably get away with it otherwise, this would be first been nice. You'd be unlucky.
Speaker 2:Good work. So how are we all fellas? All right, All good.
Speaker 1:Great, thank you.
Speaker 3:It's a bit well good.
Speaker 1:I'm excited for you to share the knowledge with these boys. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I am as well. I'm tired of sharing the knowledge.
Speaker 2:Everyone rips it off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're not those type of guys that were the Alex with it. Well, I am especially interested in the building and clubs and stuff like that, so I'll be sending it as long as you don't say shaft, don't matter, you'll be all right.
Speaker 2:What did?
Speaker 1:I tell you what did I tell you the other day.
Speaker 2:If you come out with it. People who say shaft don't matter genuinely should have a nappy on their face. They talk so much shit. God, my language, Sorry, Sorry.
Speaker 3:I think your language is absolutely fine. This is probably the one podcast where we advocate it. If anything, just go for gold, but I love the way it started. People have even asked you to tell us, for you to introduce yourself, alex, but I think we've had so far. You're quite a brash guy, so you go first and you tell us.
Speaker 2:I am a settler as a housebrick for a window, I don't care. Listen, I will tell it you straight. Let's assume it. I'm not here to be fluffy and give you a cuddle and tell you what you want to hear. I'll give it you straight. But the one thing is we just love our brand fans and they like it straight. I'm not going to give you this clickbait nonsense and massage your ego. If I think your crap and need to go away, I'll tell you. If I think your product needs snapping and putting it in the bin, I will. It's been known there's a few videos out there I've snapped a driver in a fitting and just put it in the bin.
Speaker 1:I just did that on my eyes the first time I saw you, didn't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's just they're shocking. I'm not. I'm just super laid back and love a laugh. I'll never take myself seriously. I'm very lucky in what I do and I love it, but I'm certainly not naive enough to say I'm the best. But I'm definitely in the top one. Yeah, I like that, I like it when you say that.
Speaker 2:You've got to back yourself and everything we've done over the years has always been backed by the data and Mike will tell you. He comes down to the HQ a few times. You know when he needs to tune up and whatnot, and there's no sugarcoat in it. You know. Everything we do is backed by the data, not trying to sell you what goes furthest because it's nonsense, you know. If you know the data and stuff, we get it right for people and nine times out of 10, we outperform any brand that walks through the door. You know. But we're not here to wax Lyricor and say, oh, we're the best coming by us. That's not what we're about. If you come into the studio or any of our fitting centres, no one will try and sell you a product. They educate you. You've made the decision before the end of the session whether you're going to do it or not. You know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So so my first question is, for obviously we'll do a, it'll be in the title of the episode, etc. But Alex owns his own golf brand called Orca Golf. So how did that come about then?
Speaker 2:I just love Wales, you know free. When he was in inspiration.
Speaker 3:The country's, your very animal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and because I'm dyslexic, I spell Orca wrong and it just stuck no it's a joke.
Speaker 2:You know it's born. The brand was born out of the frustration with the industry. You know I played a well-known brand Michael. You know who it is and whenever I say it people chuckle. It rhymes with shite list. I used to play that brand and they were the best. You know that's what I presumed were the best when I was a kid and I played them when I grew up in North Wales playing golf at old Colwyn and Abigail and Conway.
Speaker 2:You know, proud North Whalian came down south and carried on playing the brand mentioned and it frustrated me. You know something wasn't quite right and I never really knew the world of club building. I wasn't knew the world of club fitting. I was wet beyond the ears to it. You know, when you see these bigger brands and guys on tour playing it you think well, if they play it it must be the best. You know. But not many people realize it's a bought stat, it's a bought number. When you see number one glove, number one ball, just the brand's going and paying all the players, there's all the balls, gloves and $50,000. It's a stat. So I was unaware of that part of the industry but it took my clubs to a club builder who used to build for a brand called Olimore or Olimar, however you want to say it.
Speaker 1:I remember them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, very good fairway. It's a bit like the old Sonatec stuff. They were phenomenal as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I still got one of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I still got one. That's a classic that might be like your golf swing. It wasn't me, I'm not a classic on my golf swing. You've seen it.
Speaker 2:So I've played it well. So, yeah, I was at Wobin at the time as a trainee assistant snotting Mars bar seller. Whenever we did a stock take, the track of bars were a good couple of hundred out, no idea why. So, yeah, I took him to this guy called Mike Smith and he just showed me how badly built they were. And this was a mainstream lead and brand, if not the biggest. At the time I was just frustrated. I was like how bad is that? And if they're doing that to me, one of the guys in the shop, what are they doing to Joe Public? And it's bad when you see the build quality of some of these products. And guys are paying anywhere from 800 quid up to maybe 1500 quid, if not more, for a set of irons and they can't even be built properly. It's baffling. So yeah, Walker was born in 06 at the market in 07.
Speaker 2:The first product we made was absolute dog shit. Pardon my language, mum. It was terrible, but you've got to start somewhere and you only learn from your mistakes. If you think you're the best and you're above learning, you're naive and you're going to fail. I learn every day. It's not here to say we get it right every time, far from it.
Speaker 2:The 2009 was a big turning point for us. We won Best on Tour test, Gold Award for the PS9, and that's what really put us on the map. We beat every brand under the sun. You can tell me A Callaway, Mizzuno, ShiteList, you name it. We beat them and that's what really set us off. And what's baffling is we're the last British brand. It's mad. I sit there and think in a world of golf brands out there and there are hundreds of hardware brands, like literally hundreds it's not just the big six or eight that you think exist, but we've beaten them all and that's mad. And we're the last genuine British brand. I pinch myself some days. Very lucky lad, chubby Northwellian lad who used to play rugby mixing it with the big boys love it, Absolutely love it.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I was going to ask if I'm going back to the 2009 now. What did that do for you at the time?
Speaker 2:Well, I sat on a beach lounger having far too many points of beer. When we got the heads up, which was mega, it was like, ah, you've won Goldwater, you've won Goldwater. It's like, ah, sweet, won a sleet of balls, a toaster, and it was mad. It just went from there. The popularity of the brand grew. We've got to thank the likes of him who was playing with it. He had the RS1 and RS5s. He was a mad him playing like the Irons. He approached. He's got a set from a very good club builder who's been working using our stuff since we launched Kevin Redfern at Pinner Hill, unbelievable club builder and fitter and he's very well known on the seniors tour and stuff and was. He got a set through him and it just kind of snowballed from there. Really We've had former world number one Dave DeVauw using using set of RS10s. An amazing phone call from him out of blue. You know I remember watching him as a kid taking on Tiger Woods and getting world number one when Tiger was was at his pump. You know it's like.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be a world number one on the dog and bone to me asking to play the RS10s. I'm like you having a laugh. Who thought she was a kid Me? You know how'd you get my number and all that he said don't worry about that, I just want to play your irons. And I'm like mate, I can't. I'm not here to pay you. We do more for the homeless than we do paying players. I can't is I'm not asking them, just want to play your irons. That's insane and that was like 2013, 14.
Speaker 2:So, you know it's pretty, it's crazy. I pinch myself some days, others I punch myself, you know, but it's, it's love it, Absolutely love it.
Speaker 3:You know, I suppose sorry, josh, I just want to carry on with that I suppose one of the biggest and you might tell me I'm way off the mark, but I suppose one of the biggest frustrations you have is that a lot of professional golfers perhaps would like to explore a brand like yours but they're tied into money contracts. So as you can offer that type of financial backing, I bet you, I bet you that pisses you off really.
Speaker 2:It gets on my tits a little bit. It's the thing with the professional industry, right, it's no. No one is buying. I say less, less using because I love them so much. No one's buying shy less because world 150 uses it. Do you know me? No kids at home going awesome random French fella at world under 50 plays that I'm going to go buy it. It's nonsense. Tour players no longer sell product right and they will give Tiger Woods, phil Mickelson at the pump, yeah, every kid and a Macaroy. Every kid wanted to play what they were playing, right, like every kid when. When I was a kid wanted to play. Use the football boots. David Beckham used that's crap at football. Greater rugby, you know there's a, there's boots did be no favours but it's the aspirational part of it. So you know, no one right now is buying Ping-Ions because of Hovland is playing Ping-Ions. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't move the needle enough.
Speaker 2:The industry has changed quite a lot in the last five, six, probably ten years, I'd say. Where those big money contracts are paid out, you know every is common knowledge. You know the irons Woods was using back in the day were Muir a stamped with a night's wish. You know he wanted the softest irons made for him. And every kid sees a night's wish off, he goes and wants to buy them. That's how it works.
Speaker 2:But for me I'll never pay a tour player. You know, unless we were turning over a couple hundred million a year, it would never happen. We do more. If it's all player came to me, gone out, can you build me a set of irons? I'm like maybe I'll build you a set of irons that will win you more money than I'll ever pay you about. That you know you're not gonna go. Take your gearbox, goes on your car. You don't go to a mechanic who's got a blowtorch and a teaspoon hanging on the wall. You go to the guy with all the tools, right, so he's about having the best tools to do the job regardless. But a lot of these lower level pros who are still phenomenal athletes, by the way, you know worlds above club pros and teaching pros, etc. These satellite tall adds, if a brand comes them says, look, we'll give you five grand, he's gonna rip their arm off regardless because that five grand might be his travel expenses for the year so there's, a big.
Speaker 2:You know it's massive, whereas I'm just not gonna pay. Bigger things we do is we go and feed homeless. You know, every set of irons we sell we go feed people. That's a bigger, bigger buzz for me than paying. A tour player is gonna be a bit of a pain in the ass, woman.
Speaker 2:He's not doing well one week. What's the first thing he does? Looks at his tools, blames his tools. You know, actually, mate, the clubs are inanimate objects. They don't wake up pissed off. They don't go to sleep happy. They don't go to bed, you know, annoyed because the wife's been chipping away in his ear and got a bed hat because he's won 50 quid on the football at the weekend. They're inanimate objects. It's operator error, so it's taking ownership of that. So, yeah, if a tour player came to me, look, mate, I'll build you the tools that I'll win you the money about that. Yeah, we've done it for a few of the satellite lads, one, one recent one. Who's the one on on the tour out in SA, the sunshine tour? James Mack, you know what? You know he's out from my nose, got a sense of humor, you know he's a good looking lad as well, so he gets away with it.
Speaker 2:He could probably turn me. To be fair, he's a lovely lad. I couldn't wish anything but the best for him. He's a proper good golfer. Had an injury towards the end of last season, so that's a 5 bar be was on a roll and we looked after him for four years and he did the right thing. He called me up and said ping, who are highly rate, have offered me and I'm like me, take it, you know the fact that you've called me perfect, they'll support you on the tour. I'm not going to be flying around on tour, you know. So it's for him a great deal, great deal. You know they've kicked him out. The support my tour and bang him a few quid that might pay for his caddy or his hotel or whatever. And that's the fine margins with these boys, you know is it an eight?
Speaker 3:I know you said you'd never, unless you were turning over ridiculous money and you'd never sponsor a tour player, but is it any? Is it a aim or goal of yours to do that very thing in in terms of support players who play your eyes? Maybe go to the odd tour event abroad with the absolute to tune and, you know, master their clubs, petra absolutely, mate.
Speaker 2:If we had a, you know, if we had a dozen satellite lads who needed support, we'd go do it. You know, if they're playing well, earning money, they're just taught they're only saying good things about us. You know, at the minute, any of the satellite lads we look after they can come to HQ whenever they want get a tune-up checkup. We'll sort out their clubs. You know, mike's been there a few times. It's a top tier facility and we'll look after them.
Speaker 2:If we got to the point where we're turning over stupid money, I'll probably be sat on a yacht loving life, and the minute I'm sat on a dinghy drinking a warm beer, you know, when it gets to that stage, course we're gonna support all players, if any, anyone on the European tour. You know you're a pro-tour challenge for whatever came knocked on my door, gave me a call listen, how can we support you, how can we help you? You know, and that's always been the case we've, over the years, support so many satellite players and we're not against it. You know, just at the minute, we're not gonna pay you, mate, we can do better things that money people, people on the streets praying to have our problems. I'd rather go feed a load of them. You know Mike knows about what we do that with that. We've got that. I'd love to do that.
Speaker 3:Then pay some some lad five grand who's never gonna do anything, you know and I have to applaud you for what you're doing with the homeless before I ask my question. So great job. How often do you have to redevelop what you offer and what your line is because you look at like to tailor-made in Calaway? You can't keep up. By the time you've bought one, it's old, next week because they've made a tenth version or 11th version. So how? What's your timeline?
Speaker 3:but I don't know your answer sorry, alex, I was, I was gonna ask that very question as well, so I'll add one on to that, alex. So it's following Tristan is how often you do it, etc. But what do you think of how often they big brands do as well?
Speaker 2:so this is. You know, michael, tell you this. We've got we are numerous conversations. If you, I am, I'm like a thrush to the industry because I tell people ask me a question, I'll give you the answer. There's no, no hiding behind the lines. I'll open the door to the industry and how it works for anyone. For me, it's absolutely bloody scandalous that these brands churn out product the new, latest and greatest every nine months. It's absolute nonsense. Okay, there is no genius R&D that'll find you 30, 40 yards and go arrow straight. It's absolute drivel. Okay, no matter what clever marketing campaign, you see, there is a phrase I use you cannot polish a turd, but you can right and there's a lot of brands who roll a turd in glitter and baffle you with bollocks.
Speaker 2:Is no clever science that all the technology development is in shaft and golf ball right and if you hear any clown tell you shaft doesn't matter, give them my number or give them education and golf ball is massive, you know they.
Speaker 2:This is why they're talking about roll the golf ball rollback at the minute. You know the tech is in shaft and ball the head. There's no massive revolutionary tech in a golf head. A lot of these brands will baffle you with bollocks pardon my language by saying is the latest, greatest and goes furthest because they've bunded in a loft and limachine and cranked it for five degree strong. Some of these brands, seven irons, are like 27, 28 degrees loft outrageous. So five irons. So you get some poor fellow go mate in the seven iron 190. Shut up, derek, you've not hit 190. Forever you. Seven iron to five iron. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like you can't. It's just, it's just bullshit. It's baffling bollocks. You know, listen, I get passionate about when I talk about it it's what we're all man here.
Speaker 3:Alex, I think we can all appreciate how important balls and shafts.
Speaker 2:I can't wait that's beautiful if, mum, if you listen, I made it. No, you with, with these bigger brands, constantly churn out product, right, they have to churn out product to be still stay relevant, right? There is no. If you took one of their irons from a specific brand, take anyone, you know we've done testing and we laugh about it. It's just funny.
Speaker 2:You take a seven iron from four years ago to the current one. There is no different in terms of performance. You can have the same guy, same shaft, same spec, same loft. There'll be nothing. There might be a yard or so. It's not revolutionary, just cranking lofts. It's actually quite piss poor.
Speaker 2:And what you're doing is you get the work in man and this is my irritation with it who's got two kids and a wife, blessing mortgage job earns is 40, 45 grand a year, maybe less, whatever. And his passion is golf, that's his, that's his love, golf is his, that's my thing. His wife's might be, I don't know you wash machine, shoes, holidays, and he's gonna work hard to save his money for his irons, right, which, let's say, the average set. We know who might work for previously, so it's probably more for them, but your average brand might be, I don't know, 1200 quid, the six irons around about there and he goes and gets loosely fitted I use that term loosely and and there's a big difference between custom fit and custom build, which I could lose you for hours on.
Speaker 2:But custom fit right, it gets fish fit for these irons spends 1200 quid. Six months later they're worth 300 quid because the next sets coming out and they've not even been built properly. And that's my annoyance is the tolerance within these brands, not just the fact they churn out crap every nine, 12 months, it's the, the tolerance within them and the build quality. It's just poor. If you want to breed good brand fans who are gonna support you and build it for them properly, you know you don't spend 10 grand on a new kitchen and the guys cut the worktop 10 mil too short. You're like hey, don't worry, mate, I'll fill in with snot. You'll never know yeah, I paid you to.
Speaker 2:I paid you to fit it to the wall, not bad, not. You know what I mean. So, and that's the problem, and a lot of no. I get asked this question. I've been asked in the state when I've done interviews, those guys, what's more important lessons or clubs? And it cracks me up that, and there's a, there's a term.
Speaker 2:It cannot be greater than some of the parts, right. So you could go and have half a dozen lessons and spend three, four hundred quid on those lessons, right, but be playing with clubs half inch too short, inch too long, two degrees flat, two degrees up, right, no pro, regardless how good they are, whether a tour pro or a club pro, whatever is gonna make you amazing with those irons. They will help you improve your swing and maybe find the middle and the sweet spot in the hosel now and again, but they'll, though they won't work. Nor will that same pro, even if you've got clubs that are perfectly built for you. You could have, you could be off a 28 and have the best clubs ever, but not be able to find the middle of the face. So it cannot be great in the sum of the parts, right? You've got a. It's a blender both and understanding that blend. And it is not no one, no one. I'll argue this as long as my asshole points down. Swing, okay. No one has a swing fault. We have a swing characteristic because no two people swing at the same no one. There is not one plane to swing a club on, there are multiple. Try and tell Jim fury came and Darcy jive milk a sing. Ray McDowell like makes you see those swings. You want to vomit and cry in a corner. But they won majors, they, they won millions of dollars. So there's no, there's no fault, it's a characteristic.
Speaker 2:And bad tools, as in clubs, breed those characteristics. So if you're new to golf and you have clubs an inch too short, you're gonna be too steep because your body, angry, gonna be stooped over. You're gonna be too steep, you're gonna catch a fat divot and probably hit it left to right regardless. But you don't know that the tools have started, that you wouldn't go into a shop if you're size 10 shoe and buy a size 11 because they're on sale. I wear four pairs of socks, they'll fit in what. Nor would you. You know, and this is where I, you know, going off paced here when you listen to golf influencers on social media. Be very, very careful. You know I've a phrase you wouldn't if you need her. So your back hurts. Do you go to your dentist? Would you go see the specialist?
Speaker 2:yeah, you've got to be real careful. So when it comes back to that, do I think the products brands are constantly turning up product for the sake of it? Yes, absolutely, far too often we don't. Our shelf life can range from our PS9, no, rs1, rs3 and RS5. The RS1 iron go Google it, you'll see images still to this day I'll say is the prettiest blade ever made and we were drunk when we done that but it's, and that range stayed with us for seven, nearly eight years.
Speaker 2:I'm not reinventing the wheel. You know is that's the tech, is all in the shaft. The only thing you can do with an iron is change in the material, whether you use a certain carbon-grade steel or it, or it's stainless or premium, forged 1025, s25, cs20. You know all we can do is make an iron look pretty and change the material in which we use. That's it. That's the tech in irons. This heat treating okay, to remove the voids in the iron. That kind of helps foam filled face, kind of helps a spring effect. But technology is kind of within. The iron head is probably peaked, is reached where it can go at the minute that his ball and shaft is the key.
Speaker 3:That's what she said yeah, you made me do that. So do you know what? It's interesting to say that because I went for I'm talking five years ago now, I think I went for a driver fitting. I didn't end up buying the driver, but he asked me if I wanted the full bag fitting as well and I said no thanks Because in my mind I was like I'm off 25. What's the point getting fit now when, hopefully, if I hit the goals I want to, I'll be off a less undercoupling years to cover? My twing will have changed. So there's no point. But what you're saying there is. I should have gone and gotten fit for there and then address the next. There's a difference, okay?
Speaker 2:So let's take the assumption you're off 25. Someone listening to this will probably be off a 25 or 20, whatever, thinking, oh, should I get fit? Should I not Listen? It's not cheap, okay, but it also can be relatively cheap or cost effective. My biggest advice would be for anyone, especially if you're on a budget as well, right is, go have a fitting and try and see a specialist club builder, club fitter. Head to our website. There's loads of them. You can find them.
Speaker 2:I have no gradual acts to grind with club fitters, and I use that term loosely. It's that will give you a good fitting and find you a result that will kind of get you where you need to be right. And then they will. What do they do with that order? Email it off to the manufacturers, right? And you might have a guy who's in that warehouse who just can't be asked with today, just can't be doing with. A wife was in my ear, the kid wouldn't shut up and the dog shot in my slippers Like I'm not having a good day. So I'm just gonna cut grip and get these out of the door cause I can't be bothered. And that's where it falls down Now, where, when you see a specialist who fits and builds.
Speaker 2:They've got every intention to give you the best. They fit you and they're gonna build your irons okay. So there's a big difference. That's part of the difference between custom build and custom fit is huge. It's like I liken it to going to next.
Speaker 2:Custom fit is like going to next other clothing retail brands are available and picking up a shirt. It kind of fits. It's a bit short in the arms, so you roll the sleeve up, wear it casual, no one knows. Okay, that is like the custom fit. The custom build is like going to a tailor and getting tailored properly. You know, I'm six foot three, used to be that around the waist I've got my right arms about half inch shorter than my left. So when I go get a shirt made, they tailor it. You know I'm not having to roll a cuff up or anything. It's like it fits me perfectly.
Speaker 2:And that's the difference between custom fit and custom build. It's a huge chasm and if you have clubs properly built for you, it's why we don't. You know, you'll see on social we don't just custom fit, we custom build. I preach that message. The difference is stark, you know. You can go on and see people who follow with the hashtag orkerites thing and you see guys going mate, I've shot like two under my handicap today, or I've broken 70 for the first time ever. That is. That is just the confirmation that what we do is the best and not many can get close to it.
Speaker 2:So you know, regardless of your handicap, if you're on a budget, go see a club bid to fit a, have a fitting pay for his time, right. When you go get your car fixed, you don't just pay for the gearbox, you're paying for the labor as well. Right, get your specs and go and try and find something close to those specs on Fleabay or Golfbidder. You know, find something as close as you can. That'll do you well In terms of shaft profile, flex weight. In terms of the head. Now a lot of people don't understand the head design centre gravity. Is it low, is it high? You know, depending on that, if you have a low, any, you know I might be testing you here. But do you know what low and high centre gravity do to the ball?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:Okay. So whenever you hear low and high, it's vice versa in golf. Okay. So if you hear low kick point, it sends the ball high. High kick point brings the ball low. Low centre gravity sends the ball high. High centre gravity sends the ball low.
Speaker 2:So bear that in mind when it comes to iron head design as well, because that can be counterintuitive. If you need to hit the ball higher, you certainly don't want a high centre gravity, you want a low centre gravity head help the ball get up in the air. Likewise, a low kick point shaft or on the high kick point shaft. So once you've kind of got your spec, you could easily go get a set of irons that'll do you well for three and a half hundred quid You've saved yourself 800 quid by not spending 1200 quid on new set of irons that from a certain brand that'll be obsolete in nine months because the latest and greatest has come out. It's nonsense. So you know I change stuff when I wake up and get bored and think, ah, we need to change selling. That's when we do it. I'm not dictated to by what the industry is doing, couldn't care less.
Speaker 3:I have to admit, what you're actually doing is making me want to go and spend a shift of money on or what are you doing to?
Speaker 3:yourself, and I'm not just saying that, I think it's your passion, the way you're talking about that. You know what you're doing. So I want to ask now. So let's say, someone in a much better position than me with you know, when you were talking about the family man a minute ago, with a wife and two kids, that is exactly me two and a two. I can't hear that man. Ha ha, ha, ha ha. So right now it's not going to be me walking through the doors as much as you're making me really hope that I can put my life savings into it. But let's say someone comes to Orca Golf. They go right, I'm here, I want the whole package. I want you to measure me, watch my swing, do everything you need to do. I want you to look at the shaft, the grip, the head. How much is it going to cost a person to come to Orca to take mid to best tier irons and go through the whole process?
Speaker 2:One million dollars now. Ha ha, ha, ha ha. See, this is an interesting one. People go oh how much. It depends on what shaft and grip you. I'll give you a ballparker First off. Never, ever, okay, how good someone says they are, have a full bag fitting in one day never. If you love your golf and value your hard earned cash, never do it, regardless of how much they're pushing you. Okay, you even go for a wood fitting, iron fitting, wedge fitting and a putter fitting okay, I will never again, as long as my asshole points down is, give a full fitting in one day because it gives negative results. It's quite taxing.
Speaker 2:Michael, tell you you come for an iron fitting. It's not an iron fitting, it's an education, right. And we go through all the possible combinations to find you the ideal, the optimal, as I call it, and those numbers I could talk to you about and lose you forever. People just head to the social media and you'll see it. We try and find you the optimal spin, optimal launch, and that could be going through a whole iron fit and take an hour, hour and a half. Then you have a cup of tea and then you crack on with your woods, have a day off. So we do slightly things differently and you get a number of little extras so you only have to pay. If you come for a fitting, you pay for our time, okay, but we'll fund that against your purchase because we value our time right. And if you come for an iron fitting and go I want woods, we don't pay. You charge you for a second fit. You just book in, book in and we'll do your wood fitting.
Speaker 2:And we tend to do that when they can pick up the irons. That's the education. They're so like clued in after irons, people who have a session with me for an hour and a half and normally go away more educated, more clued up than a lot of fitters out there. And other guys call me up in fittings with brands and this is the date you need to look for, this is the spin, the launch, and they'll challenge the fitter. If you're not sure, ask challenge. When I and that's how I learned I was a pain in the ass I went to America and challenge club fitters and builders like I would question them and like go, no, I think you're wrong. And they'd look at me go, shut up, pal. And I think you're wrong. Like, challenge them. That's how you learn. So when you're in a fitting, ask, don't be afraid, you know you're there with an ex supposed expert who should be able to tell you why.
Speaker 2:So we offer that over a multiple of fittings and a driver. Our driver tops out with a premium shaft at about 335, right goes right down to 275. Our irons, depending on what you go for entry level CTIs you pay in about under a quitter stick, depending if you have steel or graphite. If you get to RS 10s, which are the only QuadNet forged iron on the planet, from premium S25C steel which is softer than butter left on a windowsill is proper mustard. They go around at about 189 with a premium shaft.
Speaker 2:But what I said to people look, if you can go, get a second onset. If you're on a budget, buy a second onset, we'll refund for you. Come down, have a fit in and I'll go. Yeah, you just need to change those shafts. It costs you half the price. A lot of people do that. We're not adverse to that. You know, if we look after you, what's the first thing you're gonna do when you get to the golf course? Wax, lyrical bowers and you may be saying go check us out. You know, which is why, again reverting back to the why we don't really do a lot with tall players because they don't sell product our brand ambassadors do more like the football players. You go turn up at golf day with Phil Jagioka, dave May, paul Skolls, whoever. The first thing you're doing is what? Looking in their bag.
Speaker 2:You know, dave May, he's your find a pack of four pork pies and a beer Skollsy. You'll find a voodoo doll for Liverpool. It's you know. So you're gonna look in their bag again and go, oh man, I'm gonna check these out. You know so, how we build clubs and how we educate people is part of why we've done so well. You know, couple years back I'll say a couple years back it seems like a couple, but it was ages ago 2014.
Speaker 2:Did this interview in America and the guys were like, why are you so successful? And I said well, we're still learning. We're not major successful yet, but we focus on our own shit. If I worry about anyone else or any other brand to take my off the ball, we focus on ourselves and looking after our customers because, believe it or not, I see it as my privilege that you guys would play our brand. That's my privilege. It's not your privilege to be playing it.
Speaker 2:If you didn't buy it or play it, I wouldn't be where I am today. I wouldn't be sat in my dinghy drinking one beer. Keep buying it, because I want to see any yacht drinking cold beer, but it's you know. That's where we differ. We actually care about our brand fans, which is this collective of all carites, which is a which I absolutely love the word. It means a gathering of all carites. They're just like. This is so cool and I didn't even think of that. Not taking any claim to that Some random person on social media. I'd love to find who. It was sort of my set of irons. You watch, I'll get in and dated. It was me, it was me, it was me. But yeah, so it's that collective and how we educate the people so they go away and they're not having to get a new set of irons next month because it's the latest and greatest. It's.
Speaker 2:You know, when you see people say I hit the seven iron 190, I would say what's the loft? And they don't know what I'm saying. Mate, I guarantee you, I'm gonna show you when you come into Orca HQ. I show you the build quality of your irons before you even swing one of ours Mike's seen it we show you the swing weight, the lengths, the loft lies, to show you what you're playing with. And then when I show you what we use, our irons range from 34 degrees to 36 degrees, our seven irons, which is traditional loft.
Speaker 2:And when people go, I can't hit that, I'm not gonna hit that as far as my seven iron you will, because we'll get you hitting the optimal spin. Spin is king. That is the most important number on the planet when it comes to the club build. Get the spin right. Everything else is taken care of outside of technique. So when people are hitting our seven irons just as far, if not further, mike's done it, he's had a fit in, he's hit our seven irons further than his old seven iron and he's looking at me like I walked into his house and pissed on his dog on Christmas day and what he did you know. And it's an education. I haven't told anyone about that. In all of that, yeah sorry.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's when you see the data and we educate you and talk you through it. It's a massive, massive eye opener and it doesn't cost a lot of money. It's actually our stuff is better value I hate the word cheaper better value than leading brands, because I don't pay to all players and we give you better materials. Better built because look your clubs, if I fit you personally, your clubs are gonna be built by me because I've got a main or like that. And when you have the fidgeting, you think how is this cheaper? Because I don't pay to all players, mate, because I don't waste all this money on marketing. I'm gonna give you the best, build the best and you're gonna play your best. It's that simple and it's I love it, just love it. And I struggle to get away from fitting people because that's how I started. You know it's good fun.
Speaker 3:I'm interested to hear your point of view, just briefly on, from you as someone as knowledgeable as you are in the world of golf equipment, and not you as an orcaite, as you would say Now if you were to play a full bag of. Why do you ask me Brands? Only because for us, as the average golfer, we constantly.
Speaker 2:Won't you play if you haven't played mine?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so to us. Mizzou know the best. Irons Taylor made the best drivers, scotty Camman's the best putters. That's your average person. Now, from you, what would you say?
Speaker 2:Okay. So I've got to be impartial, set my fence here. If I wasn't Mr Orca, what would I play? I'd probably play Orca. No, I'm joking. It certainly wouldn't be shite-less, let's put it that way. Yeah, that's a joke. I just say that tongue-in-cheek. They're not a bad brand, they're just built really poor. Every brand has a strength.
Speaker 2:Okay, like you've just nailed it there, taylor made are known for their woods. They are phenomenal. Right, I've done a few interviews before where I've called them shmish-mish-mish-made, because I can't really say their name, you know. But all joking aside, their woods are phenomenal. There's only really four brands that I highly rate, genuinely highly rate, because I've seen thousands of sets of irons in my time across all the brands and their general level of bill quality. If money is no object and you want to play a set of irons and you've got a blank checkbook and you're not buying ours, you're gonna go buy Mura. Okay, if you've got a bit of money but you can't really go, chuck it up the wall and you want a nigh sign, you get Ms Huno. I call him Ms Huno, just a bit tongue-in-cheek again.
Speaker 1:You get Ms.
Speaker 2:Huno because their irons are beautiful. Genuinely they are beautiful and I would. If I was playing an iron that wasn't my own, I would be playing Ms Huno irons. If you like a nigh sign but money is a bit of a real tight one then you go get Shrikson, because they make good irons, like they're generally pretty good Woods. You're only ever gonna get tailor-made, maybe a Callaway Wedges. You're gonna get a Voki or a Torsida. People will be like what, torsida? There's a brand called Yu-Yuri, a Japanese brand, and their wedges are insane. Go check them out.
Speaker 2:Putters, I love this one. Everyone says Scotty Cameron. Look, scotty Cameron's look pretty on a shelf right, just like Jessica Arba looks pretty sat on a beach. But I bet when you take her home she can't make you a bacon sandwich. You know, and that's the thing I've with Scotty Cameron's. They look amazing. But again, I've seen so many poor ones come to the studio.
Speaker 2:In terms of loft, we had a lad called Luke Johnson who played Walker Cup years and years ago. Very, very good goal for playing for England. Like phenomenal goal, for he's not playing anymore. Lovely lad is Luke Came in with his trusty Scotty Cameron Would never change it. He's like I keep leaving my putt short. I don't know what's going on. We put it in the loft of my machine. It should have been two and a half degrees, it was seven. It's that's the quality. They look great, but I wouldn't personally play. There's only two putter brands I would play, and that's even role, or better, nardi. That's where you go and what cracks me up is and again, this is for all golfers out there, regardless of your ability, age, gender what's the one club in your bag that you use the least? Really Like, if we're being honest, probably driver. Maybe a fair way would, but you're driver right, 18 holes. How often are you taking out of the bag? If, in Mike's case, you're taking out 18. Those pathways are long you know, I know.
Speaker 2:I don't know, but if you're taking your driver out of the bag, I guarantee you you're probably. Maybe I don't know maybe nine times, eight, nine, maybe Might be. You know, probably about that. So you go and have a fitting and you'll spend 500 quid with a certain brand for a club you pull out of the bag nine times. But you won't go and spend three, three and a 50 quid on a custom fit putter. The one club you pull out of the bag the most cracks me up. You don't write your score up, how far you hit it, you write how many times it took to get the ball in the aisle. That's what she said. So it's golf.
Speaker 2:We are baffled by nonsense and social media has got a lot to blame for that. You know we're blokes like golf clubs, like women, like handbags. You know it's. We're just drawn to them, we want them. You've got a pair of shoes, we just want them. You know my ex-wife had always complained to me why do you want another motorbike? You've only got one ass. And I'm like why have you got 40 pairs of shoes? You've only got two feet. You know it's, we're just drawn to things we like, don't we? You know, yeah, golf is like it's for blokes, you know. Quick question.
Speaker 3:What if you did take Jessica out of her bag and she could make a bacon sandwich as well.
Speaker 2:I would be happy as a pig in a shit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if I was in tune to do that though you know I've got to I've got to ask Al where, quickly, where did the Orca name come from? Obviously, I know we we associated with Orca's killer whales et cetera, but I've obviously seen the brand before, seen Mike play them when I first met, et cetera, and there seems to be an Asian sort of mark. I don't want to say whether it's Japanese or Chinese, I'm not sure, but if you could just touch upon you know where the name came from. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So. So if you look on our irons there's Japanese symbols and writing over there I think we use a Japanese steel. Our premium stuff Japanese, our lower end stuff is Japanese, but steel but made in China. You know, I think about us is we are last British brand, using proper Japanese materials and forging processes. That's what we pride ourselves on. You know, orca sounds Japanese as well. How the brain works. If you give me, give me a brand that's four letters long that you know of the first one off the top of your head.
Speaker 1:Nike, nike.
Speaker 2:Right, how did the Americans say it? Nike, right, four letters, two syllables Puma, ebay, sony, orca. So it's how your brain associates. It's quite clever. You know I'm not just a pretty face, you know quite business minded as well. So what we never, what we never realised I'm quite embarrassed to say, and a few people know this story we had an agency in quite a number of years ago just to check. Our branding was strong, the name was good and if you go look at anyone now, go look at our logo on the website, essentially look at the letter A. It looks like it's got a gold flag inside it. I never knew that. I didn't know that was there for Best part of seven years. So which is quite embarrassing, but also pretty cool, a good fluke, I would say.
Speaker 1:Is that like the arrow in the FedEx logo that you can't understand?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely, and a bit like the smile from A to Z in Amazon. You know it's quite, quite fluked it. You know there's a lot of stuff we've done over the years where we have fluked. Do not mind owning up to that. We're not proclaiming to be the best you know, other than being in the top one. We learn from it.
Speaker 1:So and also it's a really cool name Does sound.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. It looks mega on the irons you know we're still with 16 years, in 17 years, in nearly. We're still very much learning. But if someone has said 17 years ago, the brand will have won 40 awards and you'll be in 37 countries that have fallen off my chair laughing, you know, maybe we are, do you? Obviously are you happy with that?
Speaker 3:orca resonates with people as well, in the sense that it's to do with Killer Whales, the most sort of apex predator in the world. You know what I? Mean Like we're a small fish making big waves in a very big pond.
Speaker 2:It's like I said, you know a orca. My favourite film as a kid was Free Willy. I love orcas, but I'm dyslexic and I spell orca wrong and it just stuck yeah, yeah, I'm gonna tell you Now, it doesn't bother me, you know, I just love orca like the whale. I'm like, yeah, because that's how we spell it. You know it doesn't, it's the oldest joke out there, but it's cool, I've got that. Bother me, you know, is what it is Right, I say One thing I will say Al is obviously.
Speaker 1:I've known you for a good few years and I genuinely think that you, the first time I saw you, was the most eye-opening experience I have had regarding club fitting. I think that's the best thing I have had regarding club fitting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and it's all been downhill from there, but on a level.
Speaker 2:We won't say who you work for now.
Speaker 1:It's really nice I don't work for them anymore. I it's really nice to hear you talk with such passion to the guys about this, because I know how much you pride yourself on that and, as a brand, how hard you work to to bring that across to the brand fans. My only question is moving forward now from where you are you're 17 years in 22 years, in five years time, what for you is all going to look like?
Speaker 2:Like I said earlier, mike, I want to be something that you're not drinking cold beer, not warm beer. You know. Now, all joking aside, look we are. I would be lying if I said this has been an easy process thus far. It has been hard. You know we're going up against guys who have got bottomless pits of money. But yeah, we're going up with guys who've got bottoms of pits, bottomless pits of money, and we're beating them. You know that's. I can sit there with a big shit eating grin going. What we're doing is good.
Speaker 2:It hasn't always been plain sailing. There have been years where we've got it wrong. There have been years where I've tried to support certain social media people and we got it wrong, Very wrong. You know I've done a lot for a lot of people over the years and have been shat on like a pigeon. It is what it is. You learn from those mistakes.
Speaker 2:You know the next five years are going to be a lot tougher, especially with the way the world is at the minute. You know you're working man who's got two kids I was going to say two wives and a kid then If you've got two wives, you definitely do that. If you've got two kids, a wife and a mortgage and you know go and the cost of living is absolutely disgusting. And how I feel for the single parents who can't feed themselves, or dads going to bed stressing like how am I going to keep my wife happy and my kids safe? And you know their mortgage is doubled almost it's crazy. So golf is a luxury, it's a discretionary spend. You know like I'm not just competing against other golf brands for Mike Thoreau Jones or Josh or Mr Griffiths here to buy a set of irons. You know I'm competing against you boys going, do I buy a new set of irons or take the family on holiday next year or do I buy a new set of irons All the misses in your sofa? You know it's that's what we're competing against for discretionary spend.
Speaker 2:So the next five years for the golf industry are going to be hard, ok, and golf goes through these pits and troughs the ride a high wave, like we did coming out of lockdown. Golf was one of the first sports you could play. So everyone's like mortgage, holidays for six months, bang, let's go buy golf clubs because I have to pay my mortgage for six months. I've got all this liquid cash. Boom, golf industry took off. Members were flooding into golf courses. Now that's plateaued and cost of living has gone up and the first thing we do is look at what can we cut back on. So whereas a lot of people go buy clubs every two years, they're probably going to buy clubs every four years. They might be looking at second hand rather than new.
Speaker 2:So for the next five years, for us are maintaining what we've got, building a solid foundation so we survive. You know we've survived two recessions and a pandemic. We're doing all right. But also to finally open up the US arm of the business. That is a big pull for me. The rest of this year is getting that foundation in place.
Speaker 2:So January at the PGA trade show, we can finally go. We've got a stock up here, lads. Let's take it. Let's have it, because the US is the biggest loaf industry on the planet. It's 840 billion, 840 billion. I would love nothing more than 0.5% of that. It's 40 odd million. That'll do me. That's me buying a yacht on plenty of cold beers, maybe employing Jessica Albert to make my baking sandwiches. So that's the plan for us five years, continuous. We are based in UK, europe, and continue to educate the golfers and our door is open to anyone. People can message me on social media. Much to my, I love it, but it's also detriment to my life. I will answer anyone and everyone as much as I can because it's an education.
Speaker 2:We want the best for you and your golf. To play your best, you need the best, and if we can help you there, we will. So that's the key for us, and five years of finally cracking into the US and getting on with it Nice.
Speaker 3:Have you got left-handed clubs?
Speaker 2:We do RS 10 for left-handed. But if you are left-handed, retire and take up cricket. Everyone asked me what do I think to left-handed golfers and lady golfers? I don't mind you playing any time you want in the winter after 4 PM. I'm only joking. I'm only joking. I'm only joking. It's funny that the left-handed market and all joking side people know I'm just a joker and whatever I say she's talent-treat. But left-handers I feel sorry for because they're such a small market For me, for our business, it's less than 0.01% of our turnover.
Speaker 2:And whenever I design a product let's take an iron, I'll give you an insight here when you design a set of irons per loft, per every individual iron, the tooling in the machine to make that one iron can range anywhere from $3,000 to $4,000 for one iron. So whenever we make a set of seven irons, do the math that's $21,000 just in the tooling to make it. That's before you've even made a set of irons. So to break even on a product you have to sell quite a large volume, which is why a lot of brands won't do multiple left-handed options.
Speaker 2:You might get one, we do one. Iron, that's what we do on one wedge. If left-handed market was 10% of my turnover, it'd be a different story, and that's the difficulty. Funnily enough, the biggest market for left-handers is Scandinavia and Canada. Any other one Ice hockey, they all play ice hockey. So you get a lot of left handed golfers in Canada and Scandinavia, which is our distributors. In Scandinavia they do a load of left handed, but if you ask me what my percentage of sales are left handed, we're in the UK bare minimum. So it's a real conundrum. It's a business decision. For most brands Is it actually financially viable and worthwhile, which is sad, I feel. For left handed golfers you're limited to your options, you know.
Speaker 3:It's fine, we're over it.
Speaker 2:We could probably get you playing right handed better than you can left handed, to be fair.
Speaker 3:I reckon that, the way I've played since having children, I reckon I'm just as good right handed as I'm left handed. But that's what.
Speaker 2:I'm doing the Roneo Sullivan of golf.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think now's a good time for us to go to the quiz. Okay, so Alex, basically Josh is a co-host. He's quite a formidable quiz player. If I'm honest, he only has two losses to his name this entire season. He's quick off the mark. It's who can answer first. If you answer incorrectly, you're out until the other two answer incorrectly as well On that one question. So you're not out of every question, it's just one question. But if you're wrong, you don't get to go again and go again. You've got to wait until everyone's out on that round. So there's a pint on it as well. So if Josh does beat you, you owe him a pint. If you beat Josh, josh is going to buy a new set of all kinds.
Speaker 2:I am back up in North Wales in October. I will take your boys for a pint because I will probably lose hands on me.
Speaker 3:Don't. Yeah, you're being humble there, Mike, to be fair. Oh sorry, you were humble there. If you are up in October, we'll get a game.
Speaker 2:Happy days, let's have it.
Speaker 3:Good, all right. Question one the Ryde Cup is played in foursms or four bulls, but who decides on the order of the day? Oh, where you, captain Wrong Is the home captain then. Yeah, so one point, mike. You just sort of took years then you looked at both answers. I thought it was just a few of them.
Speaker 1:No, no, oh okay.
Speaker 3:Well, you just thought you forfeit a point there, mike. So it's over the one-nil. Okay, orcagolf, one-nil Something. Mcj and JG zero, yeah Two. What did Ludwig Ahrberg just win to? You'll make a masters. All right, listen, boys, he's smashing you. We've got one more pen here. We don't know if you can see that it says come your taste yes. Yeah, yeah, we're panicking a bit now, mike, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, you might be Josh.
Speaker 3:Question three how many cuts in a row did Tiger Woods make? 126.
Speaker 2:Massive Incorrect Mike 136.
Speaker 3:Incorrect, so I'm going to go closest to.
Speaker 2:I reckon it's a mad number, I'm going to say 172. Oh, it's in between everybody, but Josh gets the point for being 6-0-8.
Speaker 3:It's 142 consecutive cuts ended in 2005, which is just mad. Yeah, that is incredible. That is more cuts than a Jeffrey.
Speaker 2:Dahmer victim. That is insane, it is. That is some golf.
Speaker 3:Ah, question four, the famous quote the most important shot in golf is the next one. Who said that? Li Trevino Incorrect, no so everyone's back in On a pulm no incorrect.
Speaker 2:Gadi player.
Speaker 3:No. Mike, I'm going to help you get a point on the board here Speaking of club manufacturers. Go back maybe 10 years. I'm going to go back to the club.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go back to the club.
Speaker 3:I'm going to go back to the club Speaking of club manufacturers. Go back maybe 10 years. Hogan yeah, ben Hogan yeah.
Speaker 2:I was going to say thanks yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm joking, yeah, yeah, right. So the scores are Alex 2, josh 1 and Mike 1. So question five how many rider cup holes in one? Have there been Three Incorrect, four, two Incorrect, incorrect, everyone's back None. Yes, they have Definitely the least one, mike and Josh. Quick fire Four, no, incorrect, josh Seven, no, no, one's getting the point for that because it's not closest to it. It is six, so that gives Alex the win.
Speaker 1:There you go. You see Down to play that. Can I tell you the points?
Speaker 2:I drink when you normally come in a keg.
Speaker 3:That's two losses and a bounce for me. Now I'm losing it.
Speaker 2:Do you know what? I'm going to put that on the website, all the awards, and then just at the bottom, yeah, yeah, start from scratch.
Speaker 3:I'm just going to eat a quick one Eat.
Speaker 1:Josh in the quiz.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that feels bad. I don't like losing. Do you know what A deal's a deal Get a hold on? Let me just pull it up now, Get a set of what are you? Areas 10. Is that the cavity back on? You've got two. The MD will see me when I come across yoga.
Speaker 2:I'll bring a few demos. You can have a shot.
Speaker 3:I'm not a muscle backup guy.
Speaker 2:Go shell some balls at old Colwin. I love hitting sheep, it's great. Yes, moving target. I can't tell him if I love that place. Oh, Colwin, I played. I used to live from a mile from it. I'd walk down in the summer play it. It was great. Nothing like winding your top flight. Is that Bilal to resting on a nugget of sheep shit? Maybe All right?
Speaker 3:I want to touch on the debate because, um, we are getting closer and closer. So the European Riding Cup team was named this evening, and there was one omission that I thought was a shore Sure play had a short place in the team Agent Moronk, the pole who had three wins on top and didn't make it, and it was Ludwig Arberg um Heiland and Heigard.
Speaker 1:No, heigard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, heigard, yeah, heigard, sorry You're not even a stracker? Yeah, no, he was a stracker Stracker.
Speaker 1:No, you have to the six-becks dress.
Speaker 3:No, there was. I think I might have named him then. So I thought that, uh, he's got.
Speaker 2:Moronk again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, arberg, he's one of the.
Speaker 2:The um, I can't pronounce his name Heigard Arberg. He just won the Omega Masters Incredible, incredible stat. The only rider-cut player ever to make the squad and never play in a major.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, yeah yeah, first time considering, which is insane. He's been a broke-up once, basically, isn't he yeah?
Speaker 2:It's um, I think there's a lot of people right we're going to watch this rider-cup and think we're going to get an absolute battering. And on paper you could argue, yeah, we probably will get an absolute battering, but I think there'll be a surprise or two, because it's you know, half the team are rookies. Pretty much Half the team have been there done it. I think it's a good balance, you know, I think Europe are going to win.
Speaker 3:I've been saying this, I've been absolutely harping on about this, I think, the entire season. I think, yeah, at the start I thought that Europe are going to win from an underdog perspective, which is where Europe like to be, but now I think Europe are going to win from a strength perspective. You look at the top four in our team. I just don't. I can't put any of the Americans against them in a rider-cup setting.
Speaker 2:If you look at the rider-cup setting in Povland.
Speaker 3:You know it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:The world rankings at the minute suggest that European golf is on its ass and to some extent it is right. You know we lost a lot of player to the live, and that's another debate for another day. I'm a fan of the live. I'm not a fan of where the money's coming from. I think it's outrageous. But in terms of the product and you know the PGA tour have had a monopoly on the game for so many years Competition can only be good. Either you evolve or you die. It's that simple. And then merging is a good thing. Hal J Monaghan has still got a job. He's beyond me. Yeah, outrageous. But you know that's another day, another debate.
Speaker 2:Back to the rider-cup. You know losing the Hal, you know you go on form, but how? The likes of you know, like him, or Loving Ian Polter has missed a rider-cup right. And if you're going to take Brooks Kepka, why Luke hasn't? And Rory's a little bit to blame for this, and Luke as well. You know when they first came out and just dropping nonsense about the live tour. Again agree where the money is coming from. And sports washing is outrageous and you know the country's ethics and all that is wrong. But these boys are self-employed. They'll play where they want, do what they want. However, they want to earn their money and you've got a guy who is the greatest rider-cup player for Europe, who strives for rider-cup. It is his thing and you're not potentially taking him. Regardless of how crap he's playing, he always steps up for rider-cup. So you know I'm a bit baffled why Luke wouldn't take someone like Polter, who has missed a match play, to the rider-cup. You know.
Speaker 1:Even as a vice-captain. I mean, if you're going to throw Polter into the makes-you-waves, we'll put Garcia in there as well, ty's never voiced for Europe.
Speaker 2:I think this all kind of like bitterness between the two. You know, I think the full-swing documentary was amazing. It didn't paint McElroy in a great light, just being a wingy little bitch. Just get on with your golf, mate. You know you can't be calling Phil Mickelson a dick or whatever it was. Yeah, you might be a dick, but don't be coming out thinking you're all Mr Glory Bollocks Phenomenal golfer is McElroy Unbelievable. You know such a talent. I've never a guy to rip it that far and he's half the size of most of the lads. It was just insane. And for him to be doing it for so many years it's phenomenal, you know. But again, off-piste rider-cup. I think it'll be closer than people think. I think there'll be two two-and-a-half points in it. I don't think there'll be much more than that. I don't think it'll be a whitewash like people might think it is. It'd have been cool to maybe have seen an Italian make this squad, but you know he's what it is, isn't he?
Speaker 1:Francesco Molinari gave me real hope a couple of weeks ago when he got off to an out-the-six under for the front nine on Sunday a couple of weeks ago and I was like, yes, he's coming back to form. He's got a mollywood back. It's going to be brilliant.
Speaker 2:I just dig my head over the line.
Speaker 1:It'll be there in a moment, obviously, but I agree with you, Al it would have been great to see an Italian playing it. Unfortunately, I think the course will help too, though the way they'll set the course up for the matches will help Europe as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look and Home Crowd and all that. I remember, I think, one of my favourite rider cups all the time. I think it was Buu Weekly playing it and he was car boy riding the driver down the fairway and stuff. I love it. Riding Cup needs those characters. The story of him, he didn't again.
Speaker 2:I heard this from a Cleveland rep years ago, simon Everett, one of the funniest reps you'll ever come across. He was the rep for Galvin Green and Cleveland when we were at Woven. He came in and he was talking about Buu Weekly and it was just as he was breaking onto the scene, this absolute redneck from nowhere. Hazel Irvine did an interview with him and he was like so you're looking forward to the open? Just to remind you, it is the open, not the British open. He's like I don't know what the open is. I just want to play golf, make some money to go home and fishing. I think I want to make $10 million and go home fishing and I'm like this guy is just, this is what we need.
Speaker 2:Golf needs Buu Weekly's. But again, back to it. I think it's going to be a close rider cup. It will be mega. It'll be a shame not to see some of the familiar faces. It'd been good to have Polter as a vice captain. If he never gets the captain a rider cup team, it is absolute sacrilege and golf should be embarrassed if that never happens.
Speaker 3:I have to disagree with the point you made. On the last point I'm 100% agreement with and going back quickly to full swing, it really opened my eyes on Polter and when the emotion was raw between the both tours I didn't know where I stood. I watched the documentary and I was like, well, fuck me, I was in Polter at 100% go. There's no question. I actually wouldn't spend any time thinking about it had they gone to live. But whilst I think Polter is 100% going to be a captain possibly multiple captain they knew this year they wouldn't be in it and that's my point for the Americans and my point for the Europeans. They will be the next European rider cup.
Speaker 3:Where live in PJ's old news, right? And it's that. All friends again, everyone's on the same page. And everybody knew let's go back a year now. It's not new. Everybody knew that Polter Garcia Westwood, everybody knew from day one lads, you are out of this rider cup. Please don't come back crying tears next September. It was set from the get go. Same for the Americans, you know, for the likes of Patrick Reed and them. It was already set and still the whole discussion in the base made it clear lads, you're out.
Speaker 2:I think they to be fair to them and this not be sticking up from. I understand what you're saying. I think they didn't know. I think it would naive to them to sit down and go. We're definitely not going to be a rider cup. They were like we might, we might not, but these boys.
Speaker 1:They were sat down and gone.
Speaker 2:You might not make the rider cup, right. So you've got that on one side. On the other side you've got I don't know what Polter has paid right. I'm just using him because I know him from the days at Woban and stuff and he's actually a top tier fella piss. Funny, lovely lad, it's all the time to everyone, right Is?
Speaker 2:He was sat down at 43, 44, and he was struggling. I say struggling, but fighting to keep his card regularly, wasn't earning, wasn't earning five million a year, you know. And he sat down and someone that lives long, come and be the face of this logistics team and we'll pay you 20 million, guaranteed right. Check now yeah, yeah, polter's gonna sit down and go 20 million. How long is it gonna make take me to earn that on PGA Tour? Probably 10, 15 years, and then I'm gonna sit on a well past nine years, right. So I think it would have been a different story had they lived. Come into the realms of Polter and his pomp and rider cup, medina and all that, and they, they, gone. We'll pay you 20 million. He's like it'll off them in the face and gone, bugger off. You know, if he was 10 years younger and they asked him, polter, I guarantee you he said no thanks, but the fact that 43, 44, same with Richie Bland, he wasn't making multi-millions on tour.
Speaker 2:He's probably being said Rich, you 50, we'll give you five million and he's probably gone. I all right.
Speaker 1:Of all the players that went to live, blandis, who's decision I understand the absolute most. For that exact reason I agree with Polter and Westwood. And then the guys in the twilight of their careers absolutely no issue with them going.
Speaker 2:It's the.
Speaker 1:Sam.
Speaker 2:Horsefields that baffles me, those guys and Pinero.
Speaker 1:I was going to understand DJ going, but Keppler of the core Americans that went. Keppler was probably the most surprising for me. I actually understand why Cam Smith went, obviously disappointed he went. But I understand why he went because he was involved and they were promising more events in Australia, which and obviously there aren't that many tour events in Australia at the minute anyway. So from Cam Smith's side I can understand that. Obviously disappointing, especially after he just won the open and then went to live. But the older European guys who have obviously been the mainstay of the Ryder Cup for the last 20 years, obviously I'm not sure they fully appreciated this. This would be the end of their Ryder Cup playing careers, whether they wanted it to be or not. Like a few of them may have thought I might not play another one again, but I think certainly a case of if I'm good, if I'm playing well enough, then I'll get in the team.
Speaker 3:I have to disagree on that's on the basis that these guys aren't stupid and whilst I'll say this in the same breath, whilst I fully advocate what they've done and I haven't done in the past, and I've changed my mind and I'll say that at any time, especially Poulter, I do the exact same thing. But live came out with a three day event with no cuts and they were saying world ranking points from the start. So if they honestly believe that they'd earn their way in through live, they were deluded. I think you're right there.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely right. I don't think they would have gone going. We'll earn our way through live. I don't think that was the answer they came out with. It was whether we would be given a pick.
Speaker 1:Not world ranking points.
Speaker 2:You can't get ranking points for a no cut event, a three day event. The live product is flawed in the sense of no cut. Shotgun Star is diabolical and you wait I've been down to the Centurion event and you're waiting on some of the teas for quite a while for a group to come through. It didn't have that feel of a golf event like, say, the PGA went with. So the product is still in development. It's not a finalised product. It's not a finished product. It's still got needs work. But for those boys on the rider cut, I don't think they went in it going. We'll get in by getting rider cut points, because that doesn't work On a free, like we said, three day event no cut. They would have gone in going. We might get a captain's pick. They will still hope that they will get picked because they're rider cut legends.
Speaker 2:The sad thing about live is money talks right, and Bryson Brooks, johnson, cam Smith have all been paid over $100 million for less events. Have these tall lads come out and go? Guys, live isn't great but they're going to pay me $100 million and I play half the events. I get to be home 20 plus weeks more a year. Have they come out and said that Guys are gone, we get it, but not to come out and say I've done it for the money and the lifestyle. I'm going to be at home more I would have given they would have had a lot more respect from a lot more people, rather than going our PGA tour of Adam Monopoly on everything and tried to hide the fact that they've been paying stupid amounts of money.
Speaker 2:Just be honest, man. It's a bit like ex Chelsea defender who's just gone to Saudi and he's openly said mate, I've come here because they're paying me $50, $60 million a year for three years and I'm going to build schools and hospitals in my village in Africa in the middle of nowhere. Like to be honest, I found sugarcoated. But the golfing, you know, the PGA tour is going to suffer a little bit because the best six golfers aren't on it anymore. Yeah, you know it's a shame, but I totally agree with you that Ryder Cup not having the players. You know I think the lads going was a big mistake. But those in the twilight went for the money and the hope that they might get a pick. I don't think they were aware going. We're never going to play for the Ryder Cup again, you know, because it was still very much. No one really knew the full parameters of them vacating them at the PGA tour membership, you know.
Speaker 3:I have a feeling that this is a sign off now, by the way, but I've a feeling that Ian Polter will play again. Who knows? I hope so, I hope so.
Speaker 2:If he doesn't play, he needs the captain, and if he doesn't, it's a sad day for golf, European golf, you know.
Speaker 1:I think all of those guys who went over would have probably been captains at some stage had they stayed, had they not gone, and I hope that some being you know Polter, you've got to see Westwoods, kima McDowell, they're all very good potential Ryder Cup captains but, I'm not sure whether they'll get the chance. I mean, it would be really sad that that golden generation of.
Speaker 1:European golfers who made the Ryder Cup so popular part of initially obviously started with Sevilla, but since they'd have made Ryder Cup so popular as a competitive, wouldn't have the chance to either to win the Cup back or to go win it again as a captain rather than a player.
Speaker 3:Lads. I have absolutely loved that and we've gone. Usually in episode is about 55 minutes and we are deep into an hour and 35 minutes. Alex, you have been awesome, mate and you've made me want to spend all my money on Orca Golf. We don't need to, no.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, I'm doing it because I literally want to, and so I'm going to have to have a conversation with my wife now and say, listen, I know the holiday that you want to do next year was set in stone, but it no longer is. I've had a better offer.
Speaker 2:Actually, you don't need to use the holiday. There's two things you can do real quick. Number one sell a kid. Number two only fans, but with feet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the thing is, though, I reckon Trist knows that we had to sell one on the internet. Exactly which one he'd sell, though? Oh yeah, and what?
Speaker 3:If I sold my redhead child, I would say no refunds, absolutely no refunds at all. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I can see that when you're up in October, alex, you have to message us and tell us when you're up. Yeah, I'll be up.
Speaker 2:I think it's around about the 14, 15th. Whatever weekend that is, I'll 100% be up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the 14th, 15th.
Speaker 2:I've got to see my old dear and take her out. You know, not take her out for dinner, just actually take her out. She's been in the long enough now. So yeah, I'll be up that weekend and yeah, we'll get a knock in somewhere, or a beer, at least you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do a quick nine holes Morning, evening, whatever. Whatever works for you, let's get in contact and we'll go from there. Thanks for coming.
Speaker 2:Pleasure gents.
Speaker 3:Take it easy. Thanks, alex, thanks, hey Mike, thanks for your time, mate. Yeah, really.
Speaker 1:As. I was saying, it's always good to bar in with Al. He is a font of all knowledge relating to anything, to with custom fit versus custom build and the experience.
Speaker 3:He's insane, but that was at the time. You're a lot there, haven't you? Yeah, the most that being whilst doing this. That was really interesting. I love that.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to say it when you told me it was coming on. But I was like Chris is going to say this is one of his favourite episodes after this, and I know it because I've known Al for a long time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's good, I know he operates.
Speaker 1:I think I know there was not one thrill on the guy whatsoever.
Speaker 3:No, I love that you get. We get so many different perspectives and from inside the world the golf like that is great. Thanks for your time, mike. Cheers mate, and another thank you as well for the hostess and Hoi Lake as well. Hopefully we can do that. We'll have to host you at Ball Bay soon, yeah, but hang on, mike.
Speaker 1:Sorry I know if we can coordinate for the 15th of October, which is that Sunday morning I should be available. So we're going to meet up and I need to see Alex anyway about club related things. So we have to bump into them if you guys are going to have a look somewhere.
Speaker 3:You've got to after hosting us on Hoi Lake, which was all well and good, but you're not done. You've also got a hostess at Abu Dhabi.
Speaker 1:Done, yeah, can we throw some dates at me and we'll sort it. Ok, that's great.
Speaker 3:Nice one, mate. Thanks for coming on. Cheers Mike.
Speaker 1:I'm sure Abu Dhabi would be keen for content, content stuff. Yeah, I mean, obviously I can speak the club and I'm sure we can do something.
Speaker 3:That's great, that's great Thanks, sean, cheers Don't worry guys.
Speaker 1:Have a great week, you too.
Speaker 3:See you soon, you too. Take care, mike. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Bye.
